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Thread: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    I'm not saying his view of how to read it is incorrect, but simply its not the ONLY way in which to view it. He says to rule in their favor would be to rule religious groups have a right to public funding. I'm saying that another way to look at it is ruling in their favor means that religious groups should have the same right to funds as anyone else and that arbitrarily withholding funds because you disagree with their KIND of discrimination is wrong.

    Since we're not talking about random groups but college groups, this is my view....

    College group A, lets say a greek fraternity, discriminates based on gender (only males can join)

    College group B, lets say a christian organization, discriminates based on sexual preference (won't let homosexuals join)

    what I'm saying is its wrong to give PUBLIC colleges the arbitrary power to say "We'll give Group A funds because we don't mind their kind of discrimination because its based on tradition, but we disagree with group B's discrimination because its based on bigoted religious views"

    I also see it less of a freedom of speech issue and more of a right to assembly thing mixed with it. Unless you're going to apply the rules fairly across the board with a PUBLIC school using PUBLIC funding, then the rule shouldn't be in place. A school should not get to pick and choose which kind of discrimination its fine with or what reasoning for discrimination its fine with. To me, this is what this ruling seems to set up is a situation where there is no uniformity, but rather the ability by the schools to arbitrarily deem certain social requirements or actions of a group of people "okay" or not without being consistent with the use of public funds.

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I'm not saying his view of how to read it is incorrect, but simply its not the ONLY way in which to view it. He says to rule in their favor would be to rule religious groups have a right to public funding. I'm saying that another way to look at it is ruling in their favor means that religious groups should have the same right to funds as anyone else and that arbitrarily withholding funds because you disagree with their KIND of discrimination is wrong.

    Since we're not talking about random groups but college groups, this is my view....

    College group A, lets say a greek fraternity, discriminates based on gender (only males can join)

    College group B, lets say a christian organization, discriminates based on sexual preference (won't let homosexuals join)

    what I'm saying is its wrong to give PUBLIC colleges the arbitrary power to say "We'll give Group A funds because we don't mind their kind of discrimination because its based on tradition, but we disagree with group B's discrimination because its based on bigoted religious views"

    I also see it less of a freedom of speech issue and more of a right to assembly thing mixed with it. Unless you're going to apply the rules fairly across the board with a PUBLIC school using PUBLIC funding, then the rule shouldn't be in place. A school should not get to pick and choose which kind of discrimination its fine with or what reasoning for discrimination its fine with. To me, this is what this ruling seems to set up is a situation where there is no uniformity, but rather the ability by the schools to arbitrarily deem certain social requirements or actions of a group of people "okay" or not without being consistent with the use of public funds.
    You call it arbitrary, I call it local control of funding. Remember, nobody is denying these groups from actually existing, just from getting public funding and recognition. Since when is there a right to that? What's the alternative? Force the university via federal mandate to accept and fund all groups that apply?

    Seems to me that this ruling was made deliberately narrow. You do not have a constitutional right to funding for any student group. That's all they said. The rest bounces back with the lower courts. If you rule that there's a consitutional right to funding of discrimination, you're going to have to answer for it when the KKK sends in an application for a student group.
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    You call it arbitrary, I call it local control of funding. Remember, nobody is denying these groups from actually existing, just from getting public funding and recognition. Since when is there a right to that? What's the alternative? Force the university via federal mandate to accept and fund all groups that apply?

    Seems to me that this ruling was made deliberately narrow. You do not have a constitutional right to funding for any student group. That's all they said. The rest bounces back with the lower courts. If you rule that there's a consitutional right to funding of discrimination, you're going to have to answer for it when the KKK sends in an application for a student group.
    However if a Campus is going to arbitrarily decide which discrimination under the law is okay or not to get funding then it begins to point to issues other than the discrimination that is the determining factor. For example if you give benefits to Fraternities, which discriminate on Gender, but don't give it to a club like this, that discriminates on sexual preference, then it leads on to believe your issue is not discrimination but something larger than that, in which case its a school using public funds to push an agenda.

    This is my issue in a larger case, is the fact that it essentially is giving carte blanche for PUBLIC institutions to create agenda driven requirements that they can arbitrarily enforce to deny student groups that adhere to all other rules but simply are of an ideological stance that the college disagrees with benefits that another organization doing a similar thing but is ideologically in line with the campus would be receiving.

    To try and use your hyperbolic example, this would be like banning the KKK from protesting but allowing the Black Panther's because of a law stating that hate groups can't protest but choosing to only enforce it against a hate group the local cops dislike.

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Why does a university fund such groups in the first place? Everyone is always complaining about how expensive higher education is. Maybe they should lower tuition and let groups find their own damn funding?

    .

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    However if a Campus is going to arbitrarily decide which discrimination under the law is okay or not to get funding then it begins to point to issues other than the discrimination that is the determining factor. For example if you give benefits to Fraternities, which discriminate on Gender, but don't give it to a club like this, that discriminates on sexual preference, then it leads on to believe your issue is not discrimination but something larger than that, in which case its a school using public funds to push an agenda.

    This is my issue in a larger case, is the fact that it essentially is giving carte blanche for PUBLIC institutions to create agenda driven requirements that they can arbitrarily enforce to deny student groups that adhere to all other rules but simply are of an ideological stance that the college disagrees with benefits that another organization doing a similar thing but is ideologically in line with the campus would be receiving.

    To try and use your hyperbolic example, this would be like banning the KKK from protesting but allowing the Black Panther's because of a law stating that hate groups can't protest but choosing to only enforce it against a hate group the local cops dislike.
    So what would you rule? That there's a constitutional entitlement to public funding of student groups?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    Why does a university fund such groups in the first place? Everyone is always complaining about how expensive higher education is. Maybe they should lower tuition and let groups find their own damn funding?

    .
    This is my feeling on the subject. Religious organizations shouldn't get public funding not because they discriminate against homosexuals; rather religious organizations shouldn't get public funding because they are religious organizations and therefore subject to separation of church and state. It's best when we keep religion out of government and government out of religion.

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    This is my feeling on the subject. Religious organizations shouldn't get public funding not because they discriminate against homosexuals; rather religious organizations shouldn't get public funding because they are religious organizations and therefore subject to separation of church and state. It's best when we keep religion out of government and government out of religion.
    What do you think about them getting tax breaks on their property?

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Stop and think about what you just said. That would mean every group would have to tolerate everyone no matter what the senario lest they be accused of discrimination.

    This is what you really want?
    Sure. If they want to discriminate against gays, then they can start their own privately funded group.

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    So because the court said one thing, you think that anyone who disagrees with any aspect of it doesn't "understand the Constitution and equal protection analysis"? Does that same logic apply to SC decisions that you don't like?
    I think he was just getting back for the usual conservative taking point.

    I am having a hard time finding where this ruling infringes on any ones rights. If you want public support, you have to follow simple nondiscriminatory rules, if the public school has such rules. This idea that saying groups cannot act in a discriminatory manner to get public support is not a violation of free speech to my mind.
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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    What do you think about them getting tax breaks on their property?
    I don't care if they do or not. I would prefer it that churches who take in a high amount of tithes have to prove they've done charitable works in order to get tax breaks on their property, though. I only want churches who take in a high amount of tithes to prove this, though, because there are a lot of smaller churches who take in just enough for operating costs. Also, smaller churches are more likely to spend the tithes they receive on charitable works, while larger churches act more like a business than a church.

    I'm not saying this because I want to be critical of churches and religion, but rather be critical to those religious organizations who get tax breaks because they're supposed to do charitable works without actually doing any charity.

    But that's getting rather off topic on this thread.

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