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Thread: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Good post, except for the folowing:

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Good hard working men and women fought long and hard for a fair pay and decent hours and standards for working conditions... we've squandered that by allowing these companies to move offshore, or hire slave labour.
    We "squandered" that by failing to give the employers the ability to resist ridiculous wage demands by unions, by those same companies actually being complicit in those silly demands, and by the government and regulators taxing companies to the point where they want to escape overseas.

    Since the United States is supposed to be a free country, there's really nothing the government should do to not "allow" companies to relocate overseas. What the government should have done is created a favorable environment to be competitive with offshore sites that competed for our businesses.

    That's how free markets work.

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Good post, except for the folowing:



    We "squandered" that by failing to give the employers the ability to resist ridiculous wage demands by unions, by those same companies actually being complicit in those silly demands, and by the government and regulators taxing companies to the point where they want to escape overseas.

    Since the United States is supposed to be a free country, there's really nothing the government should do to not "allow" companies to relocate overseas. What the government should have done is created a favorable environment to be competitive with offshore sites that competed for our businesses.

    That's how free markets work.
    First of all nowhere is a "free market" and I am tired of the suggestion.

    Second, you've gotta be kidding about the domestic competition bit. Our North American governments created NAFTA knowing full well what it would do: take manufacturing jobs out of our hands and place them into the hands of foreign soil. It's the fundamental reason why our economy is becoming more and more service based and reliant on consumerism to survive. Our governments did it so that people in power could personally profit, and so could their business buddies. There is huge corporate lobbying surrounding liberalization treaties.

    The last thing we need to do is try to compete with China in our labor laws. It would essentially require us to remove worker rights and the minimum wage, all of which are against our ethics in a democratic and free society. We should just accept that we are no longer going to be affluent in this world like we used to be, and it's our own fault because our short-sighted neo-liberal policies are what lead us down this path.

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Do I care if you're tired?

    Controlled markets don't work, as FANNIE MAE and FREDDIE MAC demonstrated most admirably.

    The reasons businesses move offshore is that it's less expensive to do their work there. The governments of the United States contributed greatly to this problem, as did the greedy unions.

    So the governments and the unions got to see their jobs move off shore.

    Boo hoo hoo.

    That's how freedom works.

    Since the answer the governments and the unions have to their little problem is less freedom, the governments and the unions can go play with themselves for all I care.

    If we can't compete with China on labor costs, then we need to find some other field to play in.

    Forcing the consumer to pay more because some companies can't compete without the muscle of government threat is morally wrong and economically inefficient.

    Let's face it. People who's only saleable skill is putting the same door latch on the same car, day in and day out, shouldn't be getting paid a whole heck of a lot, because, realistically, their skill isn't hard to acquire, difficult or dangerous to perform, and those people are easy to replace. It's harsh, but that's the reality of life.

    People that want to EARN a decent living need to learn a decent skill.

    I suggest that the nation quit wasting it's children's time in school and start teaching them the math and science skills they need to move ahead in the world, not to mention teaching them real history, real english, and real economics.

    The schools can do this by de-emphasizing feelings and baseless pride and focusing on real accomplishments, even if that means some of the little darlings might have their feelings hurt by not passing on to the next grade until they master the requirements of the grade their in. Us old folks called that "failure", and it was an embarassment we strove to avoid.

    Can anyone wonder why a nation that abandoned excellence as it's standard has stopped being an excellent nation?

    Edit:

    Last time I checked, there's no authority in the Constitution for any legislated minimum wage.
    Last edited by Scarecrow Akhbar; 06-30-10 at 05:44 AM.

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    ferris, scarecrow and Mcfly -


    The way to fix the immigration problem is to make Mexico better. NAFTA helped some, but Canada benefitted even more than Mexico, so the gap widened.

    A failed nation next-door is not a good idea and from a practical perspective there's no way you can insulate yourself from all that. Politics also abhores a vacuum. If the US does not fill a power vacuum in Mexico, some other nation would be tempted to do so. The same can be said about A-stan, Iraq and possibly Pakistan (Al Qaeda) ...All 3 are on another continent and we do not ignore them...Yet, we spend on 2 truly ****holes (About $3 billion a month in A-stan and 10 billion a month in Iraq) while Mexico recieves a paltry 75 million a year lol

    We also need to see another angle...America’s huge demand for drugs and until the U.S and Canada curb their addiction problem, the kidnappings, murders, the whole bag of fun will continue...With a situation like that, one can't blame illegals for fleeing Mexico.

    How to keep Mexico from collapsing to the people destabilizing it, the drug cartels and how to stop the massive profits flowing to the drug cartels?

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    We "squandered" that by failing to give the employers the ability to resist ridiculous wage demands by unions, by those same companies actually being complicit in those silly demands, and by the government and regulators taxing companies to the point where they want to escape overseas.

    Since the United States is supposed to be a free country, there's really nothing the government should do to not "allow" companies to relocate overseas. What the government should have done is created a favorable environment to be competitive with offshore sites that competed for our businesses.

    That's how free markets work.
    And that's why Pres. Obama has continuously called for changing the tax codes to provide incentives for U.S. companies to bring jobs back to the U.S.

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by jujuman13 View Post
    Link
    CNSNews.com - Napolitano:

    Quote(Department of Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, whose agency is charged with securing America’s borders, told an audience in Washington, D.C., in reference to the U.S.-Mexico border, “You’re never going to totally seal that border.”)

    So in a similar vein to Joe Biden I guess they will sit on whatever laurels they imagine they have earned and do nothing further.
    And you're never going to get every gram of poop out of your buttcrack with toilet paper either, but I hope you will keep doing the best you can.

    I had a feeling this woman would be a lousy Homeland Security head. Sheesh. Why does Obama seem to do so MANY things wrong?
    Last edited by axuality; 06-30-10 at 05:50 PM.

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Controlled markets don't work, as FANNIE MAE and FREDDIE MAC demonstrated most admirably.
    Are these the only examples you (Conservatives) can provide of so-called "controlled" markets run amuck? Until the housing market took a nose-dive, both Fannie and Freddie were applauded in the mortgage industry for their genious in creative financing. (Read the book, "Good to Great", by Jim Collins) It wasn't until other financial entities decided to latch onto their creative financing methods and greedily expand on them did the housing bubble burst! Until then, all was well in the direvatives market. Not saying that what Fannie and Freddie did wasn't wrong regardless, just saying I've grown weary of these two companies being used as the poster children of government intervention gone bad when so many other commercial businesses are equally if not more responsible for contributing to this country's economic problems.
    The reasons businesses move offshore is that it's less expensive to do their work there. The governments of the United States contributed greatly to this problem, as did the greedy unions.

    So the governments and the unions got to see their jobs move off shore.

    Boo hoo hoo.

    That's how freedom works.
    But you're putting down the very problem with capitalizism and the free enterprise system. If one truly believes that a business will follow the money, then you must expect that eventually many businesses will go where they can obtain greater wealth at lower overhead costs. If so, we can expect more businesses to leave this country were cheap labor is plentiful but the cost of those goods and services will remains near fair market price. The problem here, of course, is fewer and fewer jobs will be found here in the states such is the problem we're facing today. Some, like you, have argued for years "that's just how the free market system works" which may be true, but it comes at a tremendous cost to the American workforce. Production plants and service sector jobs leave because the tax-code and increased wages allow or force them to.

    Since the answer the governments and the unions have to their little problem is less freedom, the governments and the unions can go play with themselves for all I care.

    If we can't compete with China on labor costs, then we need to find some other field to play in.
    But what fields would those be? As we've seen from the housing bust, creative financing brought down our house of cards because we weren't playing with real money! It was nothing more than figures on a ledger. Alot of service sector jobs have been lost along with quite a few production jobs in their wake. Until the banking industry begins to feel "comfortable" again, the only other areas to truly tap into are energy, medicine and maybe micro-processing since technology stocks have continued to do well throughout the recession. Until then, I doubt this nation will see many areas of the workforce return any time soon (i.e., housing construction, road construction, banking, education).

    Forcing the consumer to pay more because some companies can't compete without the muscle of government threat is morally wrong and economically inefficient.
    I'm not sure where you're coming from here or where you're trying to go with these except to expand on the notion that government intervention doesn't work. I'd have to disagree with you here. There have been plenty of industries that have benefited from government intervention. The oil industry comes immediately to mind. Many energy companies as well. We won't even talk about agriculture. Maybe the government can't spur the economy in the same way as private enterprise, but to incinuate that U.S. industries haven't benefited from receiving support from the government is ridiculous and very untrue.

    Let's face it. People who's only saleable skill is putting the same door latch on the same car, day in and day out, shouldn't be getting paid a whole heck of a lot, because, realistically, their skill isn't hard to acquire, difficult or dangerous to perform, and those people are easy to replace. It's harsh, but that's the reality of life.

    People that want to EARN a decent living need to learn a decent skill.

    I suggest that the nation quit wasting it's children's time in school and start teaching them the math and science skills they need to move ahead in the world, not to mention teaching them real history, real english, and real economics.

    The schools can do this by de-emphasizing feelings and baseless pride and focusing on real accomplishments, even if that means some of the little darlings might have their feelings hurt by not passing on to the next grade until they master the requirements of the grade their in. Us old folks called that "failure", and it was an embarassment we strove to avoid.

    Can anyone wonder why a nation that abandoned excellence as it's standard has stopped being an excellent nation?
    To a great extent I agree with you here and apparently so does our nation's President. That's why he has continued to place great emphasis on education from the bottom up. Still, it's going to take some time to match education needs with employment (job sector) needs. The two sectors that come immediately to mind are medical and education. Nonetheless, there has been a renewed emphasis on education in this nation. People just have to start taking advantage of it.

    Edit:

    Last time I checked, there's no authority in the Constitution for any legislated minimum wage.
    No, there isn't, but then again if we expected every little detail to be outlined in the Constitution our Founding Fathers would never have stopped writing the darn thing! Instead, they left the resposibility of governance to Congress, and as such, they write the laws of the land. Thus, they've set the minimum wage for the nation. Now, try to imagine if you will just for a moment how much of an imbalance our nation's economy would be if the states were allowed to call hourly wage earnings independent of each other? CA's hourly wages would probably be X10 higher than say MS or AL due to the fact that the later states don't have the technilogical industries to compete on a free market scale as CA. (Although Huntsville, AL, the city where I live, is a thriving technological mecca for the state.) Or you could compare NY w/CA; odds are you'd end up with the same imbalance. It's somewhat like that now but that imbalance stems from the free market system setting the price of goods and services within different geographic regions of the country based on supply and demand, not the minimum wage. All the minimum wage limit does is try to keep worker's earnings above the poverty level, nothing more. Still, I agree with you in so much as people should strive to educate themselves more so that they can make a living above the minimum wage limit.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 06-30-10 at 06:11 PM.

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    ferris, scarecrow and Mcfly -


    The way to fix the immigration problem is to make Mexico better. NAFTA helped some, but Canada benefitted even more than Mexico, so the gap widened.
    So, we should help like we 'helped' the people of Iraq and afghanistan???

    With NAFTA, it's more like it 'helped' Mexico initially, many manufacturing jobs got moved to mexico, UNTIL China became the cheaper option so even Mexico could not compete under free-trade.

    Also, to say that Canada 'benefitted' would be more accurately stated as 'canada was hurt less'.

    A failed nation next-door is not a good idea and from a practical perspective there's no way you can insulate yourself from all that. Politics also abhores a vacuum. If the US does not fill a power vacuum in Mexico, some other nation would be tempted to do so. The same can be said about A-stan, Iraq and possibly Pakistan (Al Qaeda) ...All 3 are on another continent and we do not ignore them...Yet, we spend on 2 truly ****holes (About $3 billion a month in A-stan and 10 billion a month in Iraq) while Mexico recieves a paltry 75 million a year lol
    Did I catch that right?? You're worried that the middle east is going to take control of Mexico???

    Anyway, the wars in the middle east are abhorrent on every level... they are illegal, immoral, unwinnable conflicts that do nothing but make extreme profits for the private contractors and other similar interests.

    Frankly, if we DO respond and start cleaning house, getting the illegals back to where they came from (mostly mexico) and these drug cartels try to force their way back across the border, then we'll have to talk to the leader of the country and tell him : "If you do NOT get your **** together with these drug cartels then we're going to have to come in and take care of your country for you." (Because of the pretense that if you have a 'problem' that is ignored then you are actually silently supporting / exacerbating the problem)

    We also need to see another angle...America’s huge demand for drugs and until the U.S and Canada curb their addiction problem, the kidnappings, murders, the whole bag of fun will continue...With a situation like that, one can't blame illegals for fleeing Mexico.
    Decriminalize the drugs and it's a FACT that usage and abuse will decline, it decimates the profits, and so ends that problem.

    How to keep Mexico from collapsing to the people destabilizing it, the drug cartels and how to stop the massive profits flowing to the drug cartels?
    You prevent it from collapsing with TOUGH LOVE. We send the people back and shut that border down as best possible and the people there will be FORCED to FIX the problems themselves or die trying. THAT is the type of determination that made America the beacon of freedom and prosperity the world over for as long as it's been. If they had failed, Americans would still be british subjects

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    And that's why Pres. Obama has continuously called for changing the tax codes to provide incentives for U.S. companies to bring jobs back to the U.S.
    Obama's NOT going to fix this... he does not WANT to fix this... he works for the bankers that spent at least 250k + in getting him elected, he does not give two ****s about the people that gave him at best a vote and a 50$ pittance. Just like Bush before him, Clinton before that, and even the person who will come after Obama's gone.

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    So we cant mine the parts that we cant put a fence up in?
    Jackboots always come in matched pairs, a left boot and a right boot.

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by chevydriver1123 View Post
    So we cant mine the parts that we cant put a fence up in?
    Well... the 'what must be done' will require states and / or / with individuals working together to tackle the problems. Since the federal government through their inaction on the issue have declared their position.

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