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Thread: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I don't understand where the sense of sudden urgency comes from on this issue. The number of illegal immigrants in the US has been falling for 3 years in a row. That means more illegal immigrants are choosing to leave the country than are coming in. It's falling faster than it has in 30 years. But somehow it suddenly began to be percieved as a crisis... It's just a politically manufactured panic. This isn't the kind of issue where you just want to throw together a plan driven by media hype, it's the kind of issue that you need to really carefully work through all aspects of the issue and devise just the right plan, you need to roll it out slowly and carefully, etc. Lots of civil rights issues, efficacy issues, cost issues, legal issues, need to be balanced correctly or we will just end up going down the road we did with the drug war- spending a trillion dollars and causing a lot of suffering for a lot of people without really accomplishing anything.
    Oh.. Did you confuse my outrage for panic? I been saying this for years so you can preach to someone else.
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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    That just really is not true...
    I really do wish you were right... and this would be no different a situation if it was John McCain in office, simply, this is the follow-through of the plan signed between Canada, USA and Mexico, to 'dissolve the borders between the country to focus instead on our common border.'

    www.judicialwatch.org has all the SPP documents available through freedom of information. This trancends the political parties.
    http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive....agreement.pdf
    EDIT : Ya, this document pretty much covers giving mexicans SSN's, and unemployment benefits...

    That was back when they were talking about the 'amero' as a common currency, but would require a realignment of our currencies, most likely to the lowest common denominator... meaning, lining up canada's and america's economies to be more in line with Mexico's.

    The federal government spents about $36 billion a year on border patrol. Adjusted for inflation, that's about what it has been for a long time. For some reason the right started this meme that Obama is refusing to do anything, but it's just politicking... He doesn't want to make a major change in our approach without coming up with a comprehensive solution.
    When he says 'comprehensive solution' he really does mean 'blanket amnesty'... he won't be writing the bill, or reading the bill before he signs the bill, when it eventually gets proposed, and I'll put a dollar that it will get proposed once this problem gets worse...

    YouTube - Kyl says Obama said no border security for political reasons
    Now, unless you can prove that he did not go to the whitehouse and his story is not possible, well... I'm gonna take his words, cause I've been sounding alarms about SPP before the actual documents came out, and well... they speak for themselves when viewed in entirety.

    He does not favor "blanket amnesty", he favors setting up a long and arduous path to citizenship and/or a guest worker program as part of the overall solution, but he also favors more enforcement. He just doesn't want to yeild to the political pressure to just toss out some poorly thought out kneejerk reaction and slap some more troops here or there for show without having an actual plan. This could easily degenerate into something like the absurd war on drugs where we're blowing TONS of money every year and not accomplishing really anything at all.
    I bet if those drug cartels stopped paying their cuts to the government, that there would be enough money to stop these people. If you need, I can show all the different times the FBI / CIA has been caught bringing drugs into the country, while the other branches fight 'the war at home' and arrest all the kids dumb enough to use the stuff, that is if you insist. It's amazing just how dire the situation is for the US at the moment... army spread throughout the world in hundreds of different locations, going bankrupt, then theres' a massive oil spill that some are saying threatans to evacuate much of the coast, at the same time the border problems are running rampant. Simultaneously, Israel is now posturing against Iran, and bringing US forces with them, meanwhile people are trying to smuggle aid to the palestinians. Much of the euro countries are on the verge of economic collapse and selling off their infrastructure to the same bankers that created the problems in the first place with crooked lending practises, derivatives, and other sorts of fraudulent ventures.

    I wish I was just making it all up... but if there's going to be a solution found, it's going to come from individuals getting active in their communities and making things better. If not, we are in for a rough futur.
    Last edited by BmanMcfly; 07-05-10 at 02:49 AM. Reason: fixed link

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    Again how hard is this? Not hard at all. Round em up and round em up.
    It's incredibly hard. Finding a person who doesn't want to be found in a country with 4 million square miles, 311 million people, maybe a million places of employment is ridiculously hard. Even in the case of murderers, who we want to find far more than we want to find an individual illegal immigrant, we only manage to catch a measly 9% of the culprits and we spend millions per case just to get even that 9%. There are 10 million illegal immigrants here... Think about what would it take you to avoid being caught by the police if they wanted to catch you? Just go crash on a friend's couch and get a fake ID, and they pretty much have zero chance of catching you unless they launch a massive effort with photographs of you being circulated around and tapping phones and interogating everybody you know, undercovers lurking outside your parents' house in case you try to sneak by to say hi and whatnot... Now try doing that 10 million times and you have a police action of unprecedented scale... Trillions of dollars, decades of time, and massive sacrifies of civil rights. Look what the Nazis had to do in order to round up 8 million Jews. I know, I know, I'm not saying it's like the gas chambers, but it's one of the only historical cases where anywhere near that many people who didn't want to be found were "rounded up" by a government. They had to suspend all civil rights for everybody, they had to launch massive campaigns to go door to door searching every house, they had to spend insane amounts of money, kill people who wouldn't turn their neighbors in, etc, etc. It wouldn't be much easier for us to do something on a similar scale. Or, look at how we're doing catching insurgents in Iraq. We're spending almost a trillion dollars a year there and catching maybe 10,000 a year? If that?

    "Rounding up" 10 million people who want to disappear is not an easy thing by any stretch of the imagination. It would be a massive law enforcement effort beyond anything you can imagine... We'd need to expand ICE to something several time larger than all the current law enforcement agencies combined and give them unlimited power with no due process restrictions or warrants required or anything... Nation-wide police state... It just isn't an option.

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    When he says 'comprehensive solution' he really does mean 'blanket amnesty'...
    What do you mean by blanket amnesty exactly? Are you claiming he just wants to say "bang, now they're all citizens?" If that's what you mean, then definitely, no, that is not what he wants. Or what anybody wants really.

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Kyl says Obama said no border security for political reasons
    A Republican claiming Obama said something is not reliable. I bet there is a kernal of truth to it though. I bet Obama said that he didn't want to increase border security unless it was part of a comprehensive plan on immigration. That's just smart though. The spin that it's like Obama is trying to extort their cooperation or whatever is transparent partisan hackery.

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    It's amazing just how dire the situation is for the US at the moment... army spread throughout the world in hundreds of different locations, going bankrupt, then theres' a massive oil spill that some are saying threatans to evacuate much of the coast, at the same time the border problems are running rampant. Simultaneously, Israel is now posturing against Iran, and bringing US forces with them, meanwhile people are trying to smuggle aid to the palestinians. Much of the euro countries are on the verge of economic collapse and selling off their infrastructure to the same bankers that created the problems in the first place with crooked lending practises, derivatives, and other sorts of fraudulent ventures.
    So, with all those problems why would you want to take on a whole other "war" at home? We can't afford it and we have far higher priorities on our plate.

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    It's incredibly hard. Finding a person who doesn't want to be found in a country with 4 million square miles, 311 million people, maybe a million places of employment is ridiculously hard. Even in the case of murderers, who we want to find far more than we want to find an individual illegal immigrant, we only manage to catch a measly 9% of the culprits and we spend millions per case just to get even that 9%. There are 10 million illegal immigrants here... Think about what would it take you to avoid being caught by the police if they wanted to catch you? Just go crash on a friend's couch and get a fake ID, and they pretty much have zero chance of catching you unless they launch a massive effort with photographs of you being circulated around and tapping phones and interogating everybody you know, undercovers lurking outside your parents' house in case you try to sneak by to say hi and whatnot... Now try doing that 10 million times and you have a police action of unprecedented scale... Trillions of dollars, decades of time, and massive sacrifies of civil rights...
    Ya, it'd be amazingly expensive, whereas finding the companies that are using illegal immigrant workers would be much easier of a task, and you could nab piles of them at a time... if cops are so inclined they can determine if an ID is fake... even if it's just in the details like not knowing eye color, or birthday.

    Or, look at how we're doing catching insurgents in Iraq. We're spending almost a trillion dollars a year there and catching maybe 10,000 a year? If that?
    Ya... it's a rediculous waste of money, we should have been out of there once the initial plan of 'regime change' in Iraq was accomplished.

    "Rounding up" 10 million people who want to disappear is not an easy thing by any stretch of the imagination. It would be a massive law enforcement effort beyond anything you can imagine... We'd need to expand ICE to something several time larger than all the current law enforcement agencies combined and give them unlimited power with no due process restrictions or warrants required or anything... Nation-wide police state... It just isn't an option.
    If you were hoping to accomplish the task within a year...but if it was really a multi-pronged effort to clean house, you'd start having mexicans fleeing to the border. That'd at least free up some jobs.

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    What do you mean by blanket amnesty exactly? Are you claiming he just wants to say "bang, now they're all citizens?" If that's what you mean, then definitely, no, that is not what he wants. Or what anybody wants really.
    He doesn't CARE about the mexicans one way or the other... what he wants is the voting block who will push him over the edge to vote for much more intense legislation. It's to bring about the north american union afterall... like they have in europe.

    A Republican claiming Obama said something is not reliable. I bet there is a kernal of truth to it though. I bet Obama said that he didn't want to increase border security unless it was part of a comprehensive plan on immigration. That's just smart though. The spin that it's like Obama is trying to extort their cooperation or whatever is transparent partisan hackery.
    I'm telling you, read the PDF and you'll see the plan SINCE the republican days WAS to get Mexicans in on the social security network.... even if that means giving them unemployment benefits, it's to turn them all into 'north americans'...

    You don't even have to take my words for it... Obama was bought and paid for by the same people that bought and paid for Bush. They are nothing but puppets, and the 'puppet-masters' want to make the mexicans part of 'north america'.

    So, with all those problems why would you want to take on a whole other "war" at home? We can't afford it and we have far higher priorities on our plate.
    Because this is what WAR IS it's defending the homeland, not establishing some government in some remote desert on the world. Ok... There are americans being killed by foreigners on OUR soil without retribution.... that's by any definition an invasion force. It's disgraceful there some are willing to cede land back to mexico without even a fight for it???

    The mexicans won't stop untill they've taken back the better part of the territory between texas and california. I'm just telling you what's really at stake here.

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    You set up anti-personel mines and grant troops shoot on site authorization and you will drop illegal immigration down to a trickle.
    An obstacle that is built without observation and clear interlocking fields of fire with TRPs and minefields at the avenues of approach is useless and a waste of money.

    Thats why, the obstacle will NEVER be built.

    That said... When YOUR government decides to support those here illegally either overtly through ID cards, medical care, etc, or passively through a lack of border control, it sends a message to the world at large. "Come on in, we don't give a ****!"....The Illegal Price is Right. "Come on Down!"

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    He doesn't CARE about the mexicans one way or the other... what he wants is the voting block who will push him over the edge to vote for much more intense legislation. It's to bring about the north american union afterall... like they have in europe.
    No. That explanation just doesn't line up with how things actually progressed. The Democrats haven't changed their position on immigration for like 20 years. The Republican plan was actually almost exactly the same as the Democrat's plan up until just this last year or so. Even in the last election Republicans got about 1/3 of hispanic voters. Some elections they have gotten more than 50%. Then, all of a sudden, the GOP went for this whole wave of anti-hispanic stuff- US senators launched racial attacks on Sotomayor, english as a national language stuff, AZ Republicans have been passing a flurry of anti-hispanic laws in addition to the ones dealing with illegal immigration, prominent Republicans comparing La Raza to the KKK... The Republicans have created this situation where a hispanic voter is pretty much certain to be a Democrat just in the past year or so. The Democrats didn't do anything any differently on this stuff, the Republicans changed their position and alienated the hispanics. Really it isn't even too late to turn it back around for the GOP. Lots of hispanics have only been saying they will vote Democrat for a few months now. A concerted effort to cut out all the anti-hispanic stuff would bring them back in to play easily. Keep in mind, hispanic culture is traditionally very conservative and highly religious... A huge portion of them would vote Republican if they were welcome in the party, but clearly they aren't anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    I'm telling you, read the PDF and you'll see the plan SINCE the republican days WAS to get Mexicans in on the social security network.... even if that means giving them unemployment benefits, it's to turn them all into 'north americans'...
    I think you're misreading that. It is about people who are travelling for work on behalf of an employer having benefit reciprocity. It explicitly limits the scope of the agreement to that scenario...

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Because this is what WAR IS it's defending the homeland, not establishing some government in some remote desert on the world. Ok... There are americans being killed by foreigners on OUR soil without retribution.... that's by any definition an invasion force. It's disgraceful there some are willing to cede land back to mexico without even a fight for it???

    The mexicans won't stop untill they've taken back the better part of the territory between texas and california. I'm just telling you what's really at stake here.
    Oh come on... That's some tinfoil hat stuff man... The number of illegal immigrants living in the US has fallen 3 years in a row... Meaning more illegal immigrants are leaving than are arriving...

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Oh come on... That's some tinfoil hat stuff man... The number of illegal immigrants living in the US has fallen 3 years in a row... Meaning more illegal immigrants are leaving than are arriving...
    I am just curious how you know this.

    By definition of them being illegal they are not living under their own names and they can't be counted.

    How can you count something that you don't even know where they are?

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    I am just curious how you know this.

    By definition of them being illegal they are not living under their own names and they can't be counted.

    How can you count something that you don't even know where they are?
    That's based on the DHS estimates.

    California's number drops by 250,000, the nation's nearly 1 million. The sharpest drop in three decades renews the debate over what to do about those still here.

    A new report that the nation's illegal immigrant population has declined by nearly 1 million has sharpened the debate over whether to legalize those remaining or allow their numbers to shrink through attrition.

    The number of illegal immigrants living in the United States dropped to 10.8 million in 2009 from 11.6 million in 2008, marking the second consecutive year of decline and the sharpest decrease in at least three decades, according to a report this week by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.

    Illegal immigrant numbers plunge - Los Angeles Times

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