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Thread: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by LimeLight View Post
    I'm all for that. I agree that our military should be "defending the homeland", but i don't believe its 'sane' to leave the middle east now. Whos gonna police while were gone? They certainly aren't capable of doing it, otherwise we'd be gone by now.
    Yes, well, they don't need us there policing... really... the only reason we're still in Iraq is to make sure the Iraqis don't try to reclaim control of their own oil supplies... whereas in afghanistan, there's far too much money coming from the opium trade to give back to the taliban (who would get rid of the opium), also, as we've recently found out the trillion dollars worth of lithium.

    Of course it's insane to turn down those kinds of profits.

    I mean we have put so much time, effort, and cash into the war, woulden't it be a complete waste to just cut out and leave? I think we should be more aggressive in the war. It would really cut down how long we would of been down there and remain down there. If your all in, your all in.
    These wars aren't meant to be 'won'... they are meant to be 'waged' just like there's little profit in curing disease as opposed to the amount of money to be made 'treating' a disease.

    Quote Originally Posted by LimeLight View Post
    If we inform them first then it couldn't be directly related as a Nazi act. At least they have a choice in the matter (not cross our borders) where as the Jews didn't. No I'm not agreeing with Ferris. I just hate people always comparing modern policies and methods to Nazi Germany. It gets old.
    I'd recomend researching 'operation paperclip'.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Yeah, well, I'm not a nazi, so... naaaah... I won't be going for that... I believe in proportional response, human rights and due process... Killing people with no trial just for not having their immigration paperwork in order would be completely insane...
    Yes, I agree, I really hesitate to mine out areas... however, if it's done in a lawful way (proper signage and delineated barriers), then it could prove a useful deterrent by reducing the areas that need be policed. Ultimately, there needs to be SOME deterrents going on, because when we're at a point of thousands of immigrants per day, that's millions every few years coming in... and more and more these are the violent drug cartels that are crossing over, that are NOT immigrating, they are mexicans expanding their domain of influence... aka INVADING / RECLAIMING (whichever your perspective might be)

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    LOL. Fair enough. But empowering law enforcement to kill people for suspicion of attempted illegal immigration with no evidenciary requirements, no judge, to jury, no due process, no rights, no nothing, is just madness. It's no different than just unleashing them on the masses with order to shoot to kill anybody that looks to them like they're drunk driving... Drunk driving results in around 10,000 deaths a year, so actually it is MORE crazy than that would be...
    No no, not for 'suspicion' of being an illegal immigrant... I mean, if you're in that 80 mile deep zone of arizona, and you have a gun that even gets pointed in the general direction of the soldiers / officers open fire. Or, if you're in an area where there's no legitimate border crossings for hundreds of miles in either direction, that you be stopped, and if you resist then get shot and brought back to the mexican authorities.

    We're beyond a simple 'illegal immigration' issue... this is turning into a 'hot' drug war... decriminalizing drugs would do alot to end the violence, because without profits, the drug gangs dissolve fairly quick. Like any enterprise, if you're not paying employees, you don't keep operating very long.

    That said, since the feds have zero interest in implementing such policies that would end the issue overall, what should be done then???

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Yes, well, they don't need us there policing... really... the only reason we're still in Iraq is to make sure the Iraqis don't try to reclaim control of their own oil supplies... whereas in afghanistan, there's far too much money coming from the opium trade to give back to the taliban (who would get rid of the opium), also, as we've recently found out the trillion dollars worth of lithium.

    Of course it's insane to turn down those kinds of profits.



    These wars aren't meant to be 'won'... they are meant to be 'waged' just like there's little profit in curing disease as opposed to the amount of money to be made 'treating' a disease.



    I'd recomend researching 'operation paperclip'.
    As for your statement on the war being waged, yes i agree. We need to set up a legitimate system and weaken the enemy to the point where we CAN pull out and CAN be contained in a reasonable manner. This IS a war that cannot be inevitably won. But we are not seeking to win a war, we are attempting to create order. As for Operation paperclip. I have read about that. I don;t see how that has relevance on the current border issue though. From what i understand we contained Nazi SCIENTISTS for fear of the Soviet union taking them and using them to create Super-Weapons (Much more sensitive issue at the time.). And again i don't believe we should shoot on sight. I was just making a point that comparing border control and drug cartels in todays era (Where citizenship can be acquired) to Nazi germany, was completely irrelevant.

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    There are a lot of US citizens (born in the US) that send money to their families in Mexico for the lack of social services in the country.

    They take care of their elder relatives.

    An order like you suggest first would do nothing and would not be legal.
    Not impossible, but would require some banking changes and with a president/administration who will deal with "What to do now" about the situation in Iraq and A-stan...as opposed to whose fault it was, what we should have done, this was wrong that was wrong. It all seems so basic and obvious. yet this country is struggling and neither the people or the government are doing anything to better the situation.

    It should serve as a reminder to all that illegal aliens and their confederates have no allegiance to our country or culture, yet demand more and more hospitality, forgiveness and money when they openly break our laws, flaunt their illegal status or aid in the commission of a crime.

    The fact that those kids are enjoying a free public education which they in turn abandon to desecrate a symbol of the country that enables them to pursue that avenue of success speaks volumes.

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    We're beyond a simple 'illegal immigration' issue... this is turning into a 'hot' drug war... decriminalizing drugs would do alot to end the violence, because without profits, the drug gangs dissolve fairly quick. Like any enterprise, if you're not paying employees, you don't keep operating very long.
    The drug war is a whole different thing. If they want to militarize sections of the border where they are literally getting armed gangs, hey, fine by me.

    Yeah, decriminalization is the way to go. Same reasoning as I have with illegal immigration. Enforcement alone just can't tackle a problem of that scale. You need incentive structures working in your favor or you fail.

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by LimeLight View Post
    As for your statement on the war being waged, yes i agree. We need to set up a legitimate system and weaken the enemy to the point where we CAN pull out and CAN be contained in a reasonable manner. This IS a war that cannot be inevitably won.
    No, I mean, it is meant to be a PERPETUAL war... much like in 1984 how they were always at war with eastasia or eurasia... there was never any way to 'win' the wars, they aren't MEANT to be won. It's merely the 'meat grinder'. That there are 'side benefits' of resources in most of the countries we wage war with is really a side issue... that's why McChrystal was replaced... he wanted enough soldiers to actually WIN the war in afghanistan... DENIED. Yes, there was the media show, but look at what was going on just prior to the hyped up media frenzy, that's what was REALLY going on.


    But we are not seeking to win a war, we are attempting to create order.
    Yes, we're trying to impose the anglo-american world order on those who already had their own sovereign form of order imposed. Does that make them 'the good guys' no... more like it's several colors of 'bad sides'... which I'll address next :

    As for Operation paperclip. I have read about that. I don;t see how that has relevance on the current border issue though. From what i understand we contained Nazi SCIENTISTS for fear of the Soviet union taking them and using them to create Super-Weapons (Much more sensitive issue at the time.). And again i don't believe we should shoot on sight. I was just making a point that comparing border control and drug cartels in todays era (Where citizenship can be acquired) to Nazi germany, was completely irrelevant.
    It has nothing to do with the border issue per-se, more to do with the 'nazi' analogies... if you have studied operation paperclip, then you have an idea about how the elite scientists from the nazi's avoided prosecution and were shipped over to the american side... so, it's not very much of a stretch to say that america has become the continuation of the nazi regime, except with a different strategy.


    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    The drug war is a whole different thing. If they want to militarize sections of the border where they are literally getting armed gangs, hey, fine by me.
    SO long as you're not allowing these drug gangs to gain foothold in american territories.

    Yeah, decriminalization is the way to go. Same reasoning as I have with illegal immigration. Enforcement alone just can't tackle a problem of that scale. You need incentive structures working in your favor or you fail.
    No, we need a several pronged approach :
    a) decriminalize the drugs to eliminate the black market
    b) a millitary sweep of those drug movers in arizona and other border states
    c) enforcement of all immigration laws on the books, targeting business owners primarily.
    d) freeze all assets going to mexico for a 6 month period while this is going on

    I'm sure more could be ADDED to the list of things that need to be done...

    Now, MOST IMPORTANTLY : the feds are NOT going to do ANY OF THIS!!!
    SO, we need to discuss solutions as they can be forwarded to the state congresses in all affected states as to how they can implement proper state strategies to solve the problems on their own.

    Any federal government strategy is hot air, because the feds DO NOT WANT to solve the problem in ANY way other then blanket amnesty, which would contain language tying US, Canada and Mexico into something like the european union. It's all in the SPP documents.

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    My gosh how frigging hard is it? I mean we gotta do something and now.

    I have a friend who thinks they should be able to point and shoot. While I do not agree with that?
    We need to come up with reasons to keep illegals out of the U.S.A.

    The first is the people reading this: stop hiring them

    second: go after the places that hire them

    third: tell that bastard that runs Mexico that if he does not get control over this? Well we will make sure they pay. That asshole has some nerve being upset about what has been going on AZ.. Are you frigging kidding me? You expect us to allow your people to come here illegal, send back money, etc. but what have you all done for us lately? Not one damn thing.

    Tell em all to f off and we are gonna do what we need to do even if that means putting a seal on pur borders and yes if we have to take drastic measures? Well you were warned.

    How hard is it to send a message: illegal-you do NOT get in! And if we see you trying? Well you are screwed. Maybe we need to start treating these folks with the same amount of respect we would be treated with if we break the law there. I am sure that may send a strong signal you do not wanna be illegal in the U.S.A.

    And that is MY liberal thoughts. Call me mean, racist, whatever. Guess what? I do not care as my number one concern is how to rid MY country from this problem.
    ~Following My Own Flow~

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Now, MOST IMPORTANTLY : the feds are NOT going to do ANY OF THIS!!!
    SO, we need to discuss solutions as they can be forwarded to the state congresses in all affected states as to how they can implement proper state strategies to solve the problems on their own.

    Any federal government strategy is hot air, because the feds DO NOT WANT to solve the problem in ANY way other then blanket amnesty, which would contain language tying US, Canada and Mexico into something like the european union. It's all in the SPP documents.
    That just really is not true... The federal government spents about $36 billion a year on border patrol. Adjusted for inflation, that's about what it has been for a long time. For some reason the right started this meme that Obama is refusing to do anything, but it's just politicking... He doesn't want to make a major change in our approach without coming up with a comprehensive solution. He does not favor "blanket amnesty", he favors setting up a long and arduous path to citizenship and/or a guest worker program as part of the overall solution, but he also favors more enforcement. He just doesn't want to yeild to the political pressure to just toss out some poorly thought out kneejerk reaction and slap some more troops here or there for show without having an actual plan. This could easily degenerate into something like the absurd war on drugs where we're blowing TONS of money every year and not accomplishing really anything at all.

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    we gotta do something and now.
    I don't understand where the sense of sudden urgency comes from on this issue. The number of illegal immigrants in the US has been falling for 3 years in a row. That means more illegal immigrants are choosing to leave the country than are coming in. It's falling faster than it has in 30 years. But somehow it suddenly began to be percieved as a crisis... It's just a politically manufactured panic. This isn't the kind of issue where you just want to throw together a plan driven by media hype, it's the kind of issue that you need to really carefully work through all aspects of the issue and devise just the right plan, you need to roll it out slowly and carefully, etc. Lots of civil rights issues, efficacy issues, cost issues, legal issues, need to be balanced correctly or we will just end up going down the road we did with the drug war- spending a trillion dollars and causing a lot of suffering for a lot of people without really accomplishing anything.
    Last edited by teamosil; 07-05-10 at 02:07 AM.

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    Re: Napolitano: ‘You’re Never Going to Totally Seal That Border’

    $36 billion a year on border patrol that is not working. Thanks gov. we got legal peeps up in this country starving and we are wasting away this much money on this problem? We got a bunch of dummies running this country. Again how hard is this? Not hard at all. Round em up and round em up. We/The U.S.A. made a big mistake in letting this problem get so out of control and it disgust me that so much money has went to this issue when it is not working when we could have been using this kind of money to help save LEGAL folks in this country.

    I hate to say it but since OUR gov has failed us in reguards to this issue? It is time to start taking a hard ball approach on this issue which shoulda been done all along.

    Meanwhile.. People that have worked their ass off legally in this country are worried about how they are gonna eat, pay for meds, etc. This is just shameful!

    Social security will probably be gone before long and we waste money on these criminals that are not even worthy of crossing our border. I think we need to get back to real priorities in this country and instead of being all soft about "oh they came here for a better life" Sure they did. Lets feed them. give em jobs, medical care, etc. rather than helping out Granny Jones that is LEGAL who cannot afford a fan in the summer, food, medical care and meds. Sure.. We should be sooooooooo damn sensitive to the plight of the illegals.

    Go down to Mexico and see if they give a crap about you, come back and tell me why I should care about criminals when I know many legal folks born up in this country that are sitting locked up on bull**** charges.

    Tell me I should give a crap about any of these people when they take a known risk. I am not heartless but I am of the school you protect your own first.. We got legal folks here starving and dying with no roof over they head, no food to eat, Nothing! Til we help them? I will NEVER get behind just overlooking these illegals that are getting over our system.
    ~Following My Own Flow~

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