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Thread: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

  1. #621
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    That statement is not incorrect. It's in fact very valid. Of course people can argue against it, and you can say that people who deny natural rights can still say that all people are created equal. It's true, it's physically possible to do so. However, to do so also means that there are unseen truths yet to be discovered. If you think that all humans are equal, how can you not then believe in natural rights? If you consider the full of the system, I don't see how you can come to any other conclusion. It's like dropping a ball over and over again and then claiming that gravity repels masses. At least, that's how I see it. What does it mean to be equal?

    Additionally, natural rights are natural. Which means that they are part in parcel to being human. You don't need gods to have them, you need humans to have them. I don't understand your insistence that for natural rights there must be "divine" or "supernatural" origins. It's like saying the existence of nature requires divine or supernatural origins. Not necessarily, nature exists but it doesn't necessitate a god. It just is. What is is, and what is is the existence of humans and you can go from there. Are humans equal? What does it mean to be equal? That's it, and from there you can explore the world of natural rights.

    I would also say that people like CC have no concept of rights. What they call rights are actually government granted privilege and social contract.
    And, as I said, I would say that people like you have no concept of rights. What they call rights are actually desires and instincts. This is where the genetic/evolutionary component comes in. Doesn't have to be divine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  2. #622
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    And, as I said, I would say that people like you have no concept of rights. What they call rights are actually desires and instincts. This is where the genetic/evolutionary component comes in. Doesn't have to be divine.
    I would say people like you have no concept of rights. What you call rights are actually contract and privilege. The necessities of one human are not any more or less valuable than the necessities of another human. And through these needs and equality are born natural rights. Also, I never claimed it had to be divine.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Actually, everything you said is exactly the opposite of what the concepts actually mean. The rigidity of the natural rights position is completely evident with the inability of natural rightsers to understand the flexibility of how changes in society affect societal needs. Natural rightsers do not see people as equal; they see people as part of a rigid equation, based on some ambiguous belief system. Believeing in natural rights takes away any responsibility one has to themselves, and instead puts it in the hands of some unknown source. Those who do not buy into the fallacy of natural rights have the flexibility to make choices and changes in the society in which they live. Natural rightsers do not have this ability.
    This is incredibly wrong. Almost everything you said here is incorrect. Natural rights position are born from the equality of all humans on a base level. There is plenty of flexibility within the natural rights philosophy for the changes in society, government, and socital needs. We just call those what they really are, social contract and privilege. Those are subject to the specific circumstances of a State. No one said those never existed. Belief in natural rights reinforces responsibility to the individual as now that individual must consider the base rights of other people before they act. It is no longer an undefined system with little to no morality. In fact, without natural rights, there is abdication of personal responsibility. If someone wants to do anything, they simply then have to define it in the correct terms. For instance, murder could be legal, there's noting inherent in a non-natural rights setting which would say that straight up murder is wrong. It becomes the "choice" of the individuals there and they can set that choice however they wish. Natural rights have the flexibility necessary in the form of contract and privilege while maintaining the base rights of all humans which then provide balance and check on government power, privilege and social contract. It does not dominate, but rather exists harmoniously with the other forms of societal construct.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  4. #624
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    In bold. This is the problem with your argument. The fundemental characteristic we share are basic desires and instincts. These are not rights. These get morphed into rights by the society in which we live.
    The problem with your argument is that you are too rigidly defining the terms in order to not have to consider the meaning. The fundamental characteristics shared can be understood to be natural rights. Does a person desire to live? Do our instincts drive it? Yes, of course. Most organisms, humans included, do not try to self-destruct; thus there is self-preservation instincts. Through our empathy and intellect, which is not found anywhere else in nature, we can understand that one's desire to live is no greater than another's desire to live. Thus we understand and accept the natural right of life. By considering humans in the natural state, we can accurately derive the other fundamental natural rights born by all humans; not just those lucky enough to be born into nice governments.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    And none of what you say here is accurate. One who is not controlled by natural rights has the ability to change rigid systems. Natural rightsers do not have this ability. The system is the system. That's it. You also are mixing being born equal with being born in equal circumstances. People are not born in equal circumstances; however, when a system is not as rigid as natural rightsers see it, one can easily change their circumstances, even to changing the scenario of the society in which they live. Natural rightsers do not have this ability. The system is the system.

    A basis of your disconnect, is that you confuse rights with desires and instincts.
    A basis of your disconnect is that you confuse rights with contract and privilege.

    I never maintained that everyone was born into equal circumstances, but rather that we are all born equal. Because of the insight and enlightenment of natural rights we see that people born into unequal circumstances or oppressive circumstances have the rightful say in changing that lot should they choose. The existence of natural rights puts a limit on the rightful and just activities of government, and force which is applied counter to the natural rights are then rightfully resisted. In a world with no natural rights, the system is the system. You are born where ever you are into whatever circumstances that happen to be. But since you can't say everyone is equal or possess the same base rights, there is no rightful argument born from a non-natural right system which allows people to change their lot.

    You are well confused, it is not the natural rights camp which is too rigid, it is the non-natural rights camp. Natural rights also allow for social contract and privilege, but maintain a balance between those and the innate rights of humans. Understanding and accepting natural rights is the path to progressive enlightenment. A system of no natural rights is akin to the Dark Ages.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Natural rights or natural selection. Which one prevails?

    's advocate

  7. #627
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    I got busy in other areas of the forum, and will have to respond to you, tomorrow, Ikari.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #628
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    It's not tyranny. It's how society works to form governments. I've explained this to you before. You didn't get it then, so I'm not sure why I would bother trying again.

    Oh I understood fully what you were saying before, and where you stand on this....You're dead wrong, but eh, alot of people are wrong....Nothing special about you.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Oh I understood fully what you were saying before, and where you stand on this....You're dead wrong, but eh, alot of people are wrong....Nothing special about you.


    j-mac
    Dam, big trucker, don't you ever shift gears?

  10. #630
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Oh I understood fully what you were saying before, and where you stand on this....You're dead wrong, but eh, alot of people are wrong....Nothing special about you.


    j-mac
    If you understood it, you would neither misrepresent it or feign ignorance of it. And, you did not even come close to proving me wrong, so your assertion is incorrect.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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