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Thread: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

  1. #601
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    I've never seen anything like it.

    I can't even imagine a fitting analogy to explain the holes in their logic.

    What good does it do,... to have the right to keep and bear arms against a government that has the right to regulate your use of those arms?

    It's like saying you have the right to defend yourself against me,.... but I have the final say in how you do it.

    It's insane.
    What's insane is that you don't seem to grasp the idea that the government is not an entity unto itself. It is created by people and run by people. This is why your argument completely falls apart. Since the government is formed by the people, the people have the right to include in it any rights they want and to regulate how the government operates within those rights. This is how our government is. I always find it interesting debating folks who don't know what the government is made up of and how it operates.
    Last edited by CaptainCourtesy; 07-08-10 at 03:30 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
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  2. #602
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    :facepalm:

    Are our rights more secure if a majority believe them to be inherent and immutable, or an arbitrary and artificial construct?

    Might want to think on that a bit.
    False dichotomy. But if those are the only choices, I go with the latter. Rights are more secure when they are flexible to deal with changing times. That way blacks no longer need to be slaves, women can vote, etc... I mean if rights are inalienable, how is it that blacks and women didn't have them in 1789? Were they missing the "natural rights" gene? Did they suddenly evolve and get it scores of years later? Think about that a bit.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well there's a bit more to it though. There's a fundamental difference between those who ultimately support natural rights and those who deny natural rights. In the end it is an understanding built on observation and philosophy which drives us to choose one camp or the other. Fundamentally it comes down to this realization. Do you think all humans are created equally, that fundamentally we are all the same? If yes, you're in the natural rights side. If no, you're in the no natural rights side.
    Actually, it's precisely the opposite. But more to the point, if you are on the natural rights side, philosophically, your thinking is rigid and immutable. If you are not, your thinking is flexible and you comprehend that man's understanding of things is not fixed and needs to change as things change. Not believing in natural rights is also the side of personal responsibility. The people make the decision on what can and cannot occur. Not some unsubstantiated belief.
    Last edited by CaptainCourtesy; 07-08-10 at 03:31 AM.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    I've never seen anything like it.

    I can't even imagine a fitting analogy to explain the holes in their logic.

    What good does it do,... to have the right to keep and bear arms against a government that has the right to regulate your use of those arms?
    It's like saying you have the right to defend yourself against me,.... but I have the final say in how you do it.
    It's insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    You have to love the gall some people have.

    To suggest the government grants us or gives us the right to keep and bear arms,....

    A right that we have in the event that we (the people) may have to use them (arms) AGAINST that very government should it ever become tyrannical,....

    BUT! (sic) they actually believe that same government has the right to regulate the USE of the weapons it allows for "the people" to have and to protect themselves with,..... against THAT same government that (in their opinion) gave them the right.

    OH my gawd.

    How do we reason with someone that far gone?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Not gall. You seem to believe that there is some sort of bizarre gene that instills in us the right to "bear arms" from birth. When you can identify that gene, I'll agree with you. Until then, natural rights are nothing more than some fantasy.

    Beyond that, you make the ridiculous argument that everything that the government does is for itself... which omits the fact that the government is created by the people and run by the people. It is not some odd entity unto itself. So, since the people create the government, of course they are going to create laws that prevent those in power, current and future, from being tyrannical.

    These are real simple concepts to understand... yet they seem to elude you.
    You are avoiding the point that I am making against your assertion,.... that the government has the right to dictate the "use" of our 2nd Amendment rights to keep and bear arms.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Yes, liberals are generally more in favor of restriction on owning firearms, but it's the "rabid" part that is a fabrication. Saying "Yeah, registering guns is a good idea we should make people register their guns" is not the same as LIBERALS WANT TO TAKE OUR GUNS BECAUSE THEY HATE FREEDOM.
    The results are the same, and that's what conservatives are arguing most of the time. Liberal policies are usually stupidly open ended toward eventually eliminating freedoms, in an incremental fashion.
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Actually, it's precisely the opposite. But more to the point, if you are on the natural rights side, philosophically, your thinking is rigid and immutable. If you are not, your thinking is flexible and you comprehend that man's understanding of things is not fixed and needs to change as things change. Not believing in natural rights is also the side of personal responsibility. The people make the decision on what can and cannot occur. Not some unsubstantiated belief.
    Actually is precisely the opposite. But more to the point, if you are on the natural rights side your thinking is advanced and you can easily grasp the abstract. You can understand things such as empathy and note the common thread which makes all human human. If you are not, your thinking is more limited and tends to be more concrete. People are not equal, and are subject only to the circumstances and whims of their birth. Believing in natural rights is also the side of personal responsibility. The people make the decisions on what they can and cannot do, and the consequences are born to that individual making the choice.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    I disagree, and I feel like this is a misrepresentation. I think you can have a purely positivist conception of rights and still believe that "all humans are created equally, that fundamentally we are all the same." Natural rights theory hasn't got a monopoly on equality.

    The real fundamental difference as I see it is whether you think that rights are ultimately human artifice or are derived from some divine or supernatural source.
    In any application, in terms of rights, it does actually. If there is no natural rights, because are not equal. What I have cannot be properly demanded by another. We are subject only to circumstance of birth. I in America am different than some guy in Africa and my fundamental rights are different as well by serendipity of birth. Sucks, but that's the way of it. Without natural rights, it doesn't matter. The conditions that people are born under are the conditions they are born under and they should accept it without quarrel. They have no right to rise up after all, say if they belong to some despot. No legal or moral justification to change the lot. They are different than us, not the same human, with a different set of rights. When you consider the base of humanity, however, and ponder in the natural state we can see that humans are human in the end. We are all the same, and thus fundamentally we must all possess a shared set of rights; these being the natural rights. There can be other social contract within varying countries given various circumstances, but all humans have a common set of rights. It can be no other way, not if we're all equal.

    Thus if you believe all humans are truly created equal, you accept the existence of natural rights. If not, then you are not, you deny that existence.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    If we were all created equal and we were all truly the same, we wouldn't have any need for laws-- including laws that grant rights.
    How so? If all humans are fundamentally human, why does that mean we have need for no laws? There are always assholes. If we're the same, why can there be no assholes?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    In any application, in terms of rights, it does actually. If there is no natural rights, because are not equal. What I have cannot be properly demanded by another. We are subject only to circumstance of birth. I in America am different than some guy in Africa and my fundamental rights are different as well by serendipity of birth.
    You're just begging the question. A positivist can account for the equality of people and universal rights by appealing to human rights that have been affirmatively assented to by the community of nations. Regardless of the serendipity of birth, a positivist can in fact make a case for equality. You as a natural rights theorist don't have to like it or find it persuasive, but positivist can and do account for fundamental rights of all humanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Sucks, but that's the way of it. Without natural rights, it doesn't matter. The conditions that people are born under are the conditions they are born under and they should accept it without quarrel. They have no right to rise up after all, say if they belong to some despot. No legal or moral justification to change the lot.
    They are different than us, not the same human, with a different set of rights.
    Again, begging the question. You presuming that "rights" are synonymous with "natural rights" and that just isn't the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    When you consider the base of humanity, however, and ponder in the natural state we can see that humans are human in the end. We are all the same, and thus fundamentally we must all possess a shared set of rights; these being the natural rights.
    Your argument here is really quite circular. There are good arguments for natural rights theory, but this ain't it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There can be other social contract within varying countries given various circumstances, but all humans have a common set of rights. It can be no other way, not if we're all equal. Thus if you believe all humans are truly created equal, you accept the existence of natural rights. If not, then you are not, you deny that existence.
    Begging the question again, and this time it's not just implied but explicit. Look at what you're saying here: Premise 1) all humans have a common set of rights. Premise 2) It can be no other way, not if we're all equal. Conclusion: Thus if you believe all humans are truly created equal, you accept the existence of natural rights.
    Put another way:

    1) A
    2)IF ~A THEN ~B
    Therefore IF B THEN A.
    Therefore B (Implied)

    Looking at it like that you can see it's just riddled with fallacies. Not to mention you've provided no argument for premises which not everybody grants.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 07-08-10 at 12:53 PM.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    I don't think you understand. First off for terms, there are rights and there is social contract/privilege. These are different things. A government does not have the power to grant rights, but is can make privilege. A society does not have the power to grant rights, but it can construct social contract. Privilege and contract are different from rights. It's also hard to fully develop these arguments about rights on an internet board since both time and patience run short in these places. So to formally construct the full argument you're making essentially chapters of a book. But you were incorrect in your assertion that it was all "begging the question". Essentially there is a choice along the line, humans are equal or humans are not equal. I happen to think that if you consider the natural state, there is no other conclusion other than human is human and that fundamentally we are the same. So we take that premise, if humans are fundamentally the same, so what? What does it mean that we are fundamentally the same? There's a common basis, beyond standard physical characteristics. There's something we share, by virtue of being human; and those are natural rights. Every last human has these, because we are fundamentally the same we have the similar desires and no one man's desires are of more value than another's. They're equal. The equality requires stasis and in that stasis is where we find natural rights.

    The point being is that natural rights are innate to the equality of the species as a whole. If all humans are created equal, if fundamentally human is human; natural rights have to exist. It can be no other way.

    If we are fundamentally different, natural rights cannot exist.

    Those are the two states of being. You get to choose.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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