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Thread: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

  1. #591
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Inalienable rights and natural rights are synonymous. There is no evidence that we are born with any rights. We are born with instincts, and grow to have desires. Unless someone can point out the gene that indicates that we have a "right" to free speech or a "right" to bear arms, ain't no way anyone is going to convince me otherwise. This is the one thing the founders completely missed the boat on. Or, what I actually believe is that they used this very strong terminology/philosophy both to indicate to England the seriousness of what they were doing, and to prevent tyranny from once again corrupting this nation.

    :facepalm:

    Are our rights more secure if a majority believe them to be inherent and immutable, or an arbitrary and artificial construct?

    Might want to think on that a bit.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Well there's a bit more to it though. There's a fundamental difference between those who ultimately support natural rights and those who deny natural rights. In the end it is an understanding built on observation and philosophy which drives us to choose one camp or the other. Fundamentally it comes down to this realization. Do you think all humans are created equally, that fundamentally we are all the same? If yes, you're in the natural rights side. If no, you're in the no natural rights side.
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Do you think all humans are created equally, that fundamentally we are all the same? If yes, you're in the natural rights side. If no, you're in the no natural rights side.
    I disagree, and I feel like this is a misrepresentation. I think you can have a purely positivist conception of rights and still believe that "all humans are created equally, that fundamentally we are all the same." Natural rights theory hasn't got a monopoly on equality.

    The real fundamental difference as I see it is whether you think that rights are ultimately human artifice or are derived from some divine or supernatural source.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    If we were all created equal and we were all truly the same, we wouldn't have any need for laws-- including laws that grant rights.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    If we were all created equal and we were all truly the same, we wouldn't have any need for laws-- including laws that grant rights.
    Is it that we are all created differently, or that we are all created under different circumstance??

    The constitution doesn't 'create' rights, it enumerates them.

    I don't get this idea that people can believe that people are born with different rights or something?? Don't you get that if you find an excuse to strip one person of their rights it's only a matter of time before someone decides to strip you of YOUR rights. Can someone explain to me how people don't believe that as a human that you should be treated with a level of human dignity no matter if you are super-rich or barely able to survive poor??

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    So you think it was bluster, and language to prevent tyranny here, right? Well, if you are on the side that believes that rights are only that which is extended by government, like Obama does, then how is that not tyranny?


    j-mac
    It's not tyranny. It's how society works to form governments. I've explained this to you before. You didn't get it then, so I'm not sure why I would bother trying again.
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    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    You have to love the gall some people have.

    To suggest the government grants us or gives us the right to keep and bear arms,....

    A right that we have in the event that we (the people) may have to use them (arms) AGAINST that very government should it ever become tyrannical,....

    BUT! (sic) they actually believe that same government has the right to regulate the USE of the weapons it allows for "the people" to have and to protect themselves with,..... against THAT same government that (in their opinion) gave them the right.

    OH my gawd.

    How do we reason with someone that far gone?
    Not gall. You seem to believe that there is some sort of bizarre gene that instills in us the right to "bear arms" from birth. When you can identify that gene, I'll agree with you. Until then, natural rights are nothing more than some fantasy.

    Beyond that, you make the ridiculous argument that everything that the government does is for itself... which omits the fact that the government is created by the people and run by the people. It is not some odd entity unto itself. So, since the people create the government, of course they are going to create laws that prevent those in power, current and future, from being tyrannical.

    These are real simple concepts to understand... yet they seem to elude you.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    It's fast approaching the point where you don't.


    j-mac
    Like I said. j-mac. You didn't grasp what I said the last time I explained this to you, even though you had nothing to counter it. I find no reason to explain it to you again.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #599
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    :facepalm:

    Are our rights more secure if a majority believe them to be inherent and immutable, or an arbitrary and artificial construct?

    Might want to think on that a bit.
    That's not as easy as you make it out to be.

    IMO, a belief that such rights are inherent causes people to be less vigilant about guarding them. The idea that some magical being has infused you with some right that cannot be taken away gives a false sense of that right. Tell me, what right to life does a man have drowning in the ocean? Or two people starving on an island? Who's right to life supersedes the other? In such context, the notion of natural rights completely falls apart. No organism in the world other then us practices the notion of natural rights. In nature, there are no such rights. Everything is either given or taken by force.

    Where as artificial constructs, you fully understand that it is force that gives and force that takes away and it is our job to ensure that force remains under our control.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    So you think it was bluster, and language to prevent tyranny here, right? Well, if you are on the side that believes that rights are only that which is extended by government, like Obama does, then how is that not tyranny?

    j-mac
    Because, unlike previous historical governments, we can actually write our own laws to dictate rights. Yes, you are correct, in previous eras where men had no political say over their laws, it was effectively tyranny. But that does not make the notion of natural rights are more correct.

    You may wish to brush up on the literature of Locke and Hobbes.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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