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Thread: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

  1. #551
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    From here on you base your argument on the false premise that the 2nd Amendment "right to keep and bear" is the ONLY right to keep and bear.

    When in fact, the right to keep and bear arms pre-dates the Constitution.

    Where did the founders (for example) get the right to take up arms (including CANNONS) against the King and declare our independence?

    The Constitution wasn't even contemplated at that time.

    The 2nd Amendment is nothing more than an expansion of, and a clarification of one aspect of a right that existed for centuries before the amendment was penned.

    You also ignore things like States Constitutions which declare the "militia" as being "ALL persons over the age of 17,... etc"
    Whatever pre-dates the Constitution is irrelevant to what is IN the Constitution. Any laws that predate the document are overruled BY the document.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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  2. #552
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    It's because they've pegged themselves to "originalism" or "textualism," to the point where they cannot accept that fact that those philosophies cannot honestly support the pro-gun agenda. I'm pro-gun as well, and personally I'd like to see the issue addressed honestly to provide a solid foundation for gun rights. But there is a certain element of the pro-gun side, as evinced by Goshin, tex, Turtle, goobie, etc, that has reviled interpretivism from the left-wing to the point that they are in deep denial and cannot accept their own interpretivism. Let's not kid ourselves, these are classic denial symptoms here, there isn't even an attempt at logical argument, and the responses to your point have consisted of little more than "you're wrong because I said so."
    The problem is that EVERYONE interprets the Constitution. It varies in degree and varies in what side of an issue one is on. Some are just more honest about this fact than others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  3. #553
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    How about the fact that the original definition of "to bear" as a verb includes the fundamental usuage of whatever is being borne? It doesn't mean just "to hold", otherwise it would be "To keep and hold...". To bear as the verb it is being used as includes the functional use of whatever tool, in this case arms, is being borne.
    This is not a fact, Ikari. There has been a study done on the phrase, "the right to bear arms" and it's usage in the 17th and 18th Centuries. There were found to be over 300 different usages of the term, ranging across the spectrum from carrying, owning, performing military service, and many others. The most commonly accepted usage during the time was as a synomym for carrying arms. Regardless, the term, even THEN is ambiguous at best. So, no, your definition is by no means definitive, and mine is and was more widely accepted.

    I am still going through the study on this concept, a completely fascinating paper. I will try to give an overview of the results in the next day or so, along with the link, but what I am reading supports the definition that I have put forth as the most common usage.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  4. #554
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Haha, I hear ya, j-mac, it's easy enough to get stuff like that mixed up under normal conditions

    I'd say that Brown is a good example of what's wrong with originalism, though. If the Court had always to embraced originalism, Plessy wouldn't have been overturned by Brown. There's nothing in the Constitution that says what philosophy the Court has employ to determine its meaning. Indeed, the Court isn't even granted its power as the final word on Constitutional issues by the Constitution, this power comes from the interpretivist philosophy employed by Marshall in Marbury v. Madison. If you really wanted to have law in this country that reflected the "original" meaning of the Constitution, it would mean radically changing the law in almost every aspect, and in a way that stare decisis would not permit.

    And that is my point exactly. I believe that liberals through the courts and a twisting of stare decisis has bastardized the system intentionally.


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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Whatever pre-dates the Constitution is irrelevant to what is IN the Constitution. Any laws that predate the document are overruled BY the document.
    Who's talking about laws?

    I am talking about RIGHTS which predate the Constitution,.... not laws.

    And the Constitution did not, can not, was not intended to invalidate the rights of the people which predated the Constitution.

    In fact, (sans the Bill of Rights) is specifically established and put in place a system to defend those rights which predate the constitution itself.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    And that is my point exactly. I believe that liberals through the courts and a twisting of stare decisis has bastardized the system intentionally.


    j-mac
    What is your proof of this? Your opinion?

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    Who's talking about laws?

    I am talking about RIGHTS which predate the Constitution,.... not laws.

    And the Constitution did not, can not, was not intended to invalidate the rights of the people which predated the Constitution.

    In fact, (sans the Bill of Rights) is specifically established and put in place a system to defend those rights which predate the constitution itself.
    Have you not heard about the rule of law which kept popping up during the Clinton impeachment proceedings? The rule of law trumps any tradition. If not we would still have slavery.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    Have you not heard about the rule of law which kept popping up during the Clinton impeachment proceedings? The rule of law trumps any tradition. If not we would still have slavery.
    The right to keep and bear arms is not a tradition.

    It's a right that (according to the Constitution which you are trying to revere) "shall not be infringed".

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    The right to keep and bear arms is not a tradition.

    It's a right that (according to the Constitution which you are trying to revere) "shall not be infringed".
    I was not talking about that. I am talking about how you said that the constitution could not overturn a right that predated the constitution. Try again.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    I was not talking about that. I am talking about how you said that the constitution could not overturn a right that predated the constitution. Try again.
    I addressed and quoted your post.

    No need to repeat myself.

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