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Thread: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    [QUOTE=The_Patriot;1058835266]Did James Madison and the other founding fathers use the current modern definitions of the

    Yes they did but they did not have atomic bombs, machine guns, flame throwers, tanks, and other weapons of mass destruction at the time.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    It gets the power from the phrase "public interest". For example in Walz v NY Tax Commission the supreme court ruled that even though it is probably against the 2d amendment to give churches tax free status that it was in the public interest to do so.

    In a case where the dangers to society outweigh the benefits of a right the public interest could trump certain enumerations. No right is completely absolute. Each one carries a certain responsibility to the common weal.
    That is beyond lame. even the dems under FDR used the commerce clause which is a joke

    try again, that doesn't even merit an F if I was still grading Con Law exams for One Ls



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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    [QUOTE=LiberalAvenger;1058835290]
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Did James Madison and the other founding fathers use the current modern definitions of the

    Yes they did but they did not have atomic bombs, machine guns, flame throwers, tanks, and other weapons of mass destruction at the time.
    small arms used today were far more predictable 240 years ago then the internet, satellite communications etc

    so does that mean the first amendment does not apply to this board?



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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    That is beyond lame. even the dems under FDR used the commerce clause which is a joke

    try again, that doesn't even merit an F if I was still grading Con Law exams for One Ls
    Most geniuses like me are misunderstood by the ivory tower intellectuals. People also ridiculed people like Louis Pasteur and the people who claimed that the world was flat.

    It's no wonder we have idiots like Roberts on the bench.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    [QUOTE=TurtleDude;1058835296]
    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post

    small arms used today were far more predictable 240 years ago then the internet, satellite communications etc

    so does that mean the first amendment does not apply to this board?
    Small arms were not safer. In fact, they blew up in your face a lot.

    Throw out some more red herrings.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    so does that mean the first amendment does not apply to this board?
    I notice that you use analogy to the first amendment only when it helps your case, but somehow you dismiss analogy to the first amendment when it blows your case out of the water. The first amendment wasn't originally intended to protect anything but political speech, nothing more. Likewise, the second amendment, which is explicitly tied to the militia, prima facie limits the use of arms to martial use only, a fact which history clearly bears out by the fact that "keep and bear" is a legal term of art refering to military and not personal use, and when views of the early commentators are considered. It's fine if you want to cherry-pick your facts and reinterpret Constitutional rights in light of modern sensibilities (after all, based on the way you are arguing you clearly believe that the Constitution is a Living Document that changes with the times) but this is utterly disingenuous to the original intent of the Framers.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Since the 9th indenfies rights that are not mentioned and are only implied to exist, there is no wonder that it is the most confusing of all of the first 10 Amendments. Unless one can identify what rights it actually discusses, it is all surface and little substance.
    The Framers wrote the 9th Amendment to guard against the very thing that you are trying to do with the 2nd.

    You are trying to use the fact that the 2nd Amendment lists only the right to "keep and bear" to mean that since they didn't specifically mention the "use" of arms,... the door must be wide open for the government to regulate it.

    And doing that; "using the enumeration of certain rights to deny others not listed" is a clear violation of the 9th.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    I notice that you use analogy to the first amendment only when it helps your case, but somehow you dismiss analogy to the first amendment when it blows your case out of the water. The first amendment wasn't originally intended to protect anything but political speech, nothing more. Likewise, the second amendment, which is explicitly tied to the militia, prima facie limits the use of arms to martial use only, a fact which history clearly bears out by the fact that "keep and bear" is a legal term of art refering to military and not personal use, and when views of the early commentators are considered. It's fine if you want to cherry-pick your facts and reinterpret Constitutional rights in light of modern sensibilities (after all, based on the way you are arguing you clearly believe that the Constitution is a Living Document that changes with the times) but this is utterly disingenuous to the original intent of the Framers.

    Utter nonsense. I've posted innumerable quotes by the Framers that made it quite clear that they intended the 2A to safeguard the individual right to possess and carry weapons, and to use them for all lawful purposes including self-defense. I've supported my argument with sourceable facts as to their original intent, and you continue to ignore those facts in favor of pushing your opinion that they had no such intent... and you have posted nothing to support that opinion.

    I begin to believe that you have no intention of debating honestly.

    Since you have a remarkable ability to ignore what you don't want to hear, let's have it again:

    What the Founders of the US said about guns:
    Thomas Jefferson: "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither
    inclined or determined to commit crimes. Such laws only make things worse for the assaulted and
    better for the assassins; they serve to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man
    may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." (1764 Letter and speech from T.
    Jefferson quoting with approval an essay by Cesare Beccari)

    John Adams: "Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self
    defense
    ." (A defense of the Constitution of the US)

    George Washington: "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the
    people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than
    99% of them [guns] by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very
    atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference [crime]. When firearms go, all goes,
    we need them every hour
    ." (Address to 1st session of Congress)

    George Mason: "To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them." (3 Elliot,
    Debates at 380)

    Noah Webster: "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in
    almost every country in Europe." (1787, Pamphlets on the Constitution of the US)

    George Washington: "A free people ought to be armed." (Jan 14 1790, Boston Independent
    Chronicle.)

    Thomas Jefferson: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (T. Jefferson papers,
    334, C.J. Boyd, Ed. 1950)

    James Madison: "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of
    other countries, whose people are afraid to trust them with arms." (Federalist Paper #46)
    On what is the militia:

    George Mason: "I ask you sir, who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people." (Elliott,
    Debates, 425-426)

    Richard Henry Lee: "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and
    include all men capable of bearing arms."
    (Additional letters from the Federal Farmer, at 169, 1788)

    James Madison: "A well regulated militia, composed of the people, trained to arms, is the
    best and most natural defense of a free country." (1st Annals of Congress, at 434, June 8th 1789,
    emphasis added.

    IMPORTANT NOTE: Back in the 18th century, a "regular" army meant an army that had
    standard military equipment. So a "well regulated" army was simply one that was "well equipped." It
    does NOT refer to a professional army. The 17th century folks used the term "STANDING Army"
    to describe a professional army. THEREFORE, "a well regulated militia" only means a well equipped
    militia. It does not imply the modern meaning of "regulated," which means controlled or administered
    by some superior entity. Federal control over the militia comes from other parts of the Constitution,
    but not from the second amendment.

    Patrick Henry: "The people have a right to keep and bear arms." (Elliott, Debates at 185)

    Alexander Hamilton: "...that standing army can never be formidable (threatening) to the liberties
    of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in the use of arms."
    (Federalist Paper #29)

    "Little more can be aimed at with respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed
    and equipped." (Id) {responding to the claim that the militia itself could threaten liberty}" There is
    something so far-fetched, and so extravagant in the idea of danger of liberty from the militia that one
    is at a loss whether to treat it with gravity or raillery (mockery). (Id)

    FOUNDING FATHERS INTENT BEHIND THE CONSTITUTION:

    Samual Adams: "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United
    States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms
    ." (Convention of the Commonwealth
    of Mass., 86-87, date still being sought)

    Noah Webster: "Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority...the
    Constitution was made to guard against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages
    who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean
    to be masters." (Source still being sought)

    Thomas Jefferson: "On every occasion...[of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves
    back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates,
    and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it,
    [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed." (June 12 1823, Letter to
    William Johnson)

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Captain - to avert debate but answer the question : you said you rejected natural rights.... among them self-defense, self-determination, self-control, to speak your mind, etc... I just picked one aspect, and finished the question with 'unless you were meaning something else'.

    That's where I got that idea.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You can keep trying, Goobie, but you keep failing
    No, the only failed argument here is yours.
    But, as I cannot keep you from being wrong, please continue at your leisure.

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