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Thread: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

  1. #401
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Again, you're not being careful. There was a large debate over whether or not initially the 2nd referred to military use. But that wasn't the point of the post. The point was that in continually refers to the verb "to bear" as also including the functionality of the item being borne. Which is why the Founders use "To keep and bear arms".
    Or they used the phrase "to keep and bear arms" to make a distinction between having and owning and include both in the Amendment. That way the government would not just issue them at their whim and take them at their whim.

    It is pointless to have arms if you cannot use them.
    Perhaps, but irrelevant unless you use interpretation and implication in construing the 2nd Amendment. A strict comstructionist could NOT see it this way.

    Also, while you are talking of regulation in the broader sense of the exercise of the right, specifically what I was responding to was someone who claimed that the very act of firing the gun itself was regulated. But that's not true, there are definitely situations in which you fire your gun and face no repercussions for doing so. That shows that it is not merely the act of firing your gun which is regulated. But rather there are many factors including why you fired your gun, what you were firing your gun at, and where you were firing your gun that comes into play with these laws.
    As I have been saying, where, what, how, and why can be regulated since the firing is not a Constitutional right. There are many ways to skin a cat. This is just one.

    And again, I didn't say you had to be anyone's fool, you can be an independent fool if you wish.
    Except the argument is not foolish. I haven't seen anything that demonstrates it is inaccurate. In fact, most of you are supporting my argument, yet dismissing it at the same time. Weird.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
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  2. #402
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    I refer you to Regulations for the Order and Discipline of the Troops of the United States written by Baron von Stuben that was the discipline prescribed under the act of Congress passed on March 29, 1779. The act was repassed as the Uniform Militia Act in 1792 and required Stuben's book to be used. As such, on pages 16-30 of Regulations for the Order and Discipline of the Troops of the United States presents the proper method of firing a weapon as well as the loading of said weapon.

    The argument has nothing to do with the military since that is covered under Article I Section VIII Clause XIV which states, "To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;" The militia is a separate and distinct organization from the standing military. As I said, under the definitions of the words used in the Second Amendment it does include firing of said weapons.
    All that is, is a manual about how to use and fire a weapon. No more part of law than a manual in how to operate a microwave.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Firstly, in reading the act, I see nothing that describes drills with live fire exercises. It is possible that I missed it, so please post the section. Secondly, if that IS the case, it would then fall under the jurisdication of the military. Now, if you want to make this into a military argument, I would then say that you are construing the 2nd Amendment to ONLY allow for military use of guns. Now, if you do NOT want to consider the militia part of the military (and I would disagree with you, there) then the Act itself causes regulation of gun use, completely legal under the 2nd Amendment which does not address usage. So, no matter how you look at this, there is nothing in the Militia Act that counters my argument.
    This is an interesting position... but no matter HOW you slice it, militias as an arm of the millitary, or as a part of the people... it's the PEOPLE that have the right to bear arms, and it's a right that shall not be infringed. Look, if the millitary / government gets out of control, there's a part of the constitution that describes how it's the PEOPLE's responsibility to remove the out of control people in pwer from their positions of power. You can't do that as people if you are disarmed.

    However, with the level of technology available to the US, even armed, it would now depend on millitary resources to not get wiped out.

  4. #404
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    All that is, is a manual about how to use and fire a weapon. No more part of law than a manual in how to operate a microwave.
    It's actually a part of the law. Here's Article VII of the Milita Act of 1792.

    VII. And be it further enacted, That the rules of discipline, approved and established by Congress, in their resolution of the twenty-ninth of March, 1779, shall be the rules of discipline so be observed by the militia throughout the United States, except such deviations from the said rules, as may be rendered necessary by the requisitions of the Act, or by some other unavoidable circumstances. It shall be the duty of the Commanding Officer as every muster, whether by battalion, regiment, or single company, to cause the militia to be exercised and trained, agreeably to the said rules of said discipline. I also refer you to Article I Section VIII Clause XVI in the delegation of power to prescribe the exact standards of discipline for the militia.

    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

    The Regulations for the Order and Discipline of the Troops of the United States is the method of discipline as prescribed under Article I Section VIII Clause XVI and the Second Amendment.
    Last edited by The_Patriot; 07-03-10 at 02:59 AM.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    It would help if you would clarify where it is you feel bumpfire mechanisms are and are not currently legal.
    I believe I did when I talked about jurisdictions of the Circuit Courts and the Supreme Court. Since such mechanisms are listed by the BATFE as being illegal for failing to secure the tax stamp for full auto weapons depends upon the jurisdiction of the person. Until a case is heard by the Supreme Court, it only applies to one part of the country.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    I believe I did when I talked about jurisdictions of the Circuit Courts and the Supreme Court. Since such mechanisms are listed by the BATFE as being illegal for failing to secure the tax stamp for full auto weapons depends upon the jurisdiction of the person. Until a case is heard by the Supreme Court, it only applies to one part of the country.
    References please.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    Oh god,.. I'm entering a pissing match with CC.

    (someone stop him,... cries the voice in my head)
    Come on... it's been a while. This should be a fun one.

    CC,... can you please explain to me what good it does to have a Constitutional "Right to keep and bear arms" against a government (in the event that it ever becomes a tyranny),..... and included in that Constitutional right is the caviot that the very government you have a right to bear arms against,.... has the ultimate say in how you use the arms you have?

    Good gawd,... think man.
    Great sentence. Wish I had written it. Here are a couple of answers:

    1) If there was no right to own and possess guns, a tyrannical government could oppress the people, unfettered. The possession offers the potential of usage... kinda like the concept of deterrence used in The Cold War. Lots of pro-2nd Amendment folks have said, that without the 2nd, the 1st Amendment can not be held. I would submit that if the government violated the 1st Amendment by oppressing speech, the government has illegally violated it's contract with the people, nullifying said contract, thereby allowing folks who "keep and bear arms" to use them. Now, this does not actually adhere to or violate the 2nd Amendment, but just goes beyond it's scope, allowable, as the contract is void. So, once the government becomes tyrannical and violates the Bill of Rights, voiding the contract, the people no longer have to adhere to the rules of said contract.

    2) The founders may also have only indicated only a right "to keep and bear arms" in order to allow for regulation of usage. Of course, this is just a supposition, and my first answer is far more logical.

    3) Since some of the founders, Hamilton especially, saw the Constitution as not something to encompass EVERYTHING, as this is impossible, it may have been left somewhat vague in this regards to allow for interpretation. This, of course is more of a developmentalist position, and since I am arguing from a strict originalist position, I only present this as a possibility. Again, it is my first answer that accurately responds to your question.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #408
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    References please.
    I give you this ruling. Link

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Come on... it's been a while. This should be a fun one.

    1) If there was no right to own and possess guns, a tyrannical government could oppress the people, unfettered. The possession offers the potential of usage... kinda like the concept of deterrence used in The Cold War. Lots of pro-2nd Amendment folks have said, that without the 2nd, the 1st Amendment can not be held. I would submit that if the government violated the 1st Amendment by oppressing speech, the government has illegally violated it's contract with the people, nullifying said contract, thereby allowing folks who "keep and bear arms" to use them. Now, this does not actually adhere to or violate the 2nd Amendment, but just goes beyond it's scope, allowable, as the contract is void. So, once the government becomes tyrannical and violates the Bill of Rights, voiding the contract, the people no longer have to adhere to the rules of said contract.
    There is a historical context which you are completely either oblivious to or that you are aware of an are simply omitting.

    That context (fact) is this; "The right to keep and bear arms pre-dates the Constitution itself."

    The 2nd Amendment is an expansion of the existing right that the people had when they "took up arms and used them" against the king.

    Our right to keep, bear and use arms does not come from the Constitution in the form of some lame assed 'contract.'

    The Bill of rights is a limitation on the powers and authority of the government not of the people..

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    I give you this ruling. Link
    Oh geeeezuz,...

    Read the article.

    That was NOT a bumpfire mechanism.

    "One trigger pull can empty the mag."

    That made it a full auto conversion.

    Try again.

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