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Thread: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

  1. #251
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes. But as you know, the creation of thw 14th was in direct response to states abusing, infringing and ignoring the rights of (some of) their people. How do you suppose this be reconciled, if not for the expansion of the protections of the bill or rights?

    That is, if the state abuses your rights, who else do you turn to if not the federal government?
    The 14th amendment had specific purposes for each section. I'll focus on the three that are relevant to this discussion:

    Section 1: This was two-fold: 1 it was to grant citizenship to any person born or naturalized in the US (overturning Dred Scott) and 2. It applied Article IV, section 2 to within a States as well as between states. According to Corfield v. Coryell this was partial defined as "The right of a citizen of one state to pass through, or to reside in any other state, for purposes of trade, agriculture, professional pursuits, or otherwise; to claim the benefit of the writ of habeas corpus; to institute and maintain actions of any kind in the courts of the state; to take, hold and dispose of property, either real or personal; and an exemption from higher taxes or impositions than are paid by the other citizens of the state; may be mentioned as some of the particular privileges and immunities of citizens, which are clearly embraced by the general description of privileges deemed to be fundamental: to which may be added, the elective franchise, as regulated and established by the laws or constitution of the state in which it is to be exercised." Section one basically made it some that this type of approach was taken within states. All citizens of a state were to be treated equally. Special taxes, restrictions on movement, prohibitions on trade, denial of habeus corpus etc could not occur. This was in response to the "black codes" that created special laws that only affected one group of citizens and not another and thus treated citizens unequally. This "equal treatment under the law" interpretation was was confirmed in the way that Article IV section two was defined in Paul v. Virgina.

    Section 2: Basically guaranteed Article IV, section 4. If the right to vote was removed from certain populations, the government could not be representative of the entire population. It doesn't deny the State's ability to remove the right to vote from certain populations. It just describes how that action would lead to a reduction in representation.

    Sections 3 and 4 were about the civil war itself and aren't relevent to the conversation.

    Section 5: Pretty straightforward. Grants congress authority to enforce the provisions.

    The key to the 14th is the "some of" that you put in parentheses. Sections 1 and 2, when combined, assured what was supposed to be equal treatment under the law of all citizens within a state.

    If all citizens within a state are treated equally under the law, the 14th wouldn't apply to said State's laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    As you know, part of the problem was the denial of the right to vote, both outright and by proxy.


    Again, as you know, part of the problem was the denial of the right to vote, both outright and by proxy.
    And that's definitely part of what the 14th was addressing. It was to assure equal treatment under the law for all citizens within a state (i.e. extending Article IV, section 2 to the treatment of citizens within a state, instead of just between states). It wasn't about equal laws for all states, however.

    Incorporation, however, is about equality of laws between all states. It extends the limitations that the BoR places upon the Federal Government to the States. I am of the mind that this should require a specific amendment designed for that purpose. Something simple like "The limitations placed upon the Federal Government authority by Amendments 1 through 8 are also limitations placed upon the States" would suffice.

    I would support such an amendment in a heart beat. The fact that it currently requires judicial intervention to determine if the amendments were indeed limitations on the states is proof that this is legislation from the bench. Teh fact that some things have yet to be incorporated only exacerbates the arbitrary nature of this legislation.
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  2. #252
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    It does say that this amendment may not be infringed.

    When they make laws that infringe on our right to bear arms it is unconstitutional.

    Sp screw the 14th amendment. It has nothing to do with bearing arms.

  3. #253
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    It does say that this amendment may not be infringed.

    When they make laws that infringe on our right to bear arms it is unconstitutional.

    Sp screw the 14th amendment. It has nothing to do with bearing arms
    .
    False, it has everything to do with it. The fourteenth incorporates all rights to the states, which honestly was just a way of asserting that the federal is charged with enforcing rights even against the states rather than granting them. Historically, and Justice Thomas cited this; The fourteenth extended especially to voting and gun control because of the states intitially trying to deny those two crucial rights to freed slaves. So historically the 14th is critical to this case.
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  4. #254
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I said nothing about owning a car. I said driving. In order to drive, legally, in Ohio, what are the rules, Goobie?
    So you want gun classes in high school like they have drivers ed in high school(which I wouldn't mind seeing how it doesn't actually infringe on the right to keep and bear arms,if its just a extra curricular class) and license in order to legally shoot a gun outside private property?
    Last edited by jamesrage; 06-30-10 at 11:04 AM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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  5. #255
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    False, it has everything to do with it. The fourteenth incorporates all rights to the states, which honestly was just a way of asserting that the federal is charged with enforcing rights even against the states rather than granting them. Historically, and Justice Thomas cited this; The fourteenth extended especially to voting and gun control because of the states intitially trying to deny those two crucial rights to freed slaves. So historically the 14th is critical to this case.
    I kind of disagree with that, constitutional rights applied at the state and local level before the 14th. Section 1 of the 14th just made the freed slaves into US citizens so that states could not have an excuse to deny them constitutional rights.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    False, it has everything to do with it. The fourteenth incorporates all rights to the states, which honestly was just a way of asserting that the federal is charged with enforcing rights even against the states rather than granting them. Historically, and Justice Thomas cited this; The fourteenth extended especially to voting and gun control because of the states intitially trying to deny those two crucial rights to freed slaves. So historically the 14th is critical to this case.
    It says somewhere in the constitution to the effect that certain amendments can not be construed to infringe upon other amendments.

  7. #257
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I kind of disagree with that, constitutional rights applied at the state and local level before the 14th.
    False. The BoR did not apply to the states before the 14th. they didn't even apply to the States for years after the 14th. See Baron V. Baltimore foir before th e14th and United States v. Cruikshank for after the 14th (and specifically about the First and Second amendments).
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 06-30-10 at 11:14 AM.
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    False. The BoR did not apply to the states before the 14th. they didn't even apply to the States for years after the 14th. See Baron V. Baltimore foir before th e14th and United States v. Cruikshank for after the 14th (and specifically about the First and Second amendments).
    Who did the bill of rights apply to before the 14th amendment?

  9. #259
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    False. The BoR did not apply to the states before the 14th. they didn't even apply to the States for years after the 14th. See Baron V. Baltimore foir before th e14th and United States v. Cruikshank for after the 14th (and specifically about the First and Second amendments).
    Where does it say constitutional rights now apply at the state and local level? Dred Scott v. Sandford ruled that blacks could never be citizens and that the constitution did not apply them, the 14th overturned this ruling by making freed slaves and their descendants into American citizens.

    Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  10. #260
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I did - I was, however, responding to -your- responses.
    See South v. Maryland where the Supreme Court ruled in 1855 that the police do not have to protect individuals and it is up to the individual to provide for their own defense.

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