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Thread: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

  1. #191
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No one holds the position that original intent superceeds subsequent amendments.
    But if the individual right to self defense was never there in the first place, how can it incorporate against the states?

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Goobie, I'm working on it, research takes time. I thought you already agreed to cease the gotcha-debate stuff and give me 24 hours.
    I did - I was, however, responding to -your- responses.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    But if the individual right to self defense was never there in the first place, how can it incorporate against the states?
    The 2nd was incoroprated against the states thru the 14th.
    -You- are presently working to show that the 2nd was never intended to protect the right to arms in the act of individual self-defense.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I did - I was, however, responding to -your- responses.
    Right, with a demand that I cite my sources. I had already said that I was working on it. And I'm going to continue this research and support my argument whether you like it or not. But I thought I had a gentleman's agreement from you that I could take the time to do my research before providing citations. Do I not? Rest assured that citations will be provided in due course.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The 2nd was incoroprated against the states thru the 14th.
    -You- are presently working to show that the 2nd was never intended to protect the right to arms in the act of individual self-defense.
    Thanks for repeating what I already said. I accept your concession.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Right, with a demand that I cite my sources. I had already said that I was working on it. And I'm going to continue this research and support my argument whether you like it or not. But I thought I had a gentleman's agreement from you that I could take the time to do my research before providing citations. Do I not? Rest assured that citations will be provided in due course.
    Well then, I suggest you then refrain from making additional claims in your responses - or, for that matter, responding at all - until you have those cites.

    In proving that the people that wrote and ratified the 2nd did so under a premise that makes no logical sense, you have a LOT to do. Get busy.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Thanks for repeating what I already said. I accept your concession.
    There was no concession; you have to show that your premise is sound before your statement has any effect.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Well then, I suggest you then refrain from making additional claims in your responses - or, for that matter, responding at all - until you have those cites.

    In proving that the people that wrote and ratified the 2nd did so under a premise that makes no logical sense, you have a LOT to do. Get busy.
    Nonsense. You have provided no citations for your own assertions so far, and frankly your behavior has been unnecessarily rude and combative, to the point where I must doubt your objectivity in the matter. My argument at length will appear shortly, with citations, but you can consider our discussion at an end. Good day.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Nonsense. You have provided no citations for your own assertions so far, and frankly your behavior has been unnecessarily rude and combative, to the point where I must doubt your objectivity in the matter. My argument at length will appear shortly, with citations, but you can consider our discussion at an end. Good day.
    Combative? Rude? Because I dont simply take what you say as fact and expect you to back up your claims?
    Pretty thin skin you have there, sport. Make sure you tuck that tail in tight.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Moreover, the second amendment was never originally intended as against the states, only against the federal government.
    This is where you have a legitimate arugment about Judicial activism. The bill of rights was intended as a limitation upon the Federal government. The 14th allowed them to be "incorporated" to the states.

    There is a great deal of irony in this whole debate.

    Originally, the idea that the state or local governments would try to disarm their own citizens was a pretty absurd notion. They felt the greater risk of this would be from the federal government, not state and local governments.

    Where the irony comes in is that the 2nd was, in part, about preventing the Feds from having too much authority over the States and the people. The presumption, as described in Federalist 46, was that an armed populous could combine to create a much larger fighting force than the Feds could gather (about 25 times larger) under the supervision of the State governments.

    Incorporation, however, is a result of the Feds having too much authority over the states.

    This is why this ruling has been tearing me up, personally. On one hand, I'm extatic that my rights are no longer being infringed by my local government. On the other hand, my anti-federalist inclination leads me to abor the ruling as it is just a further example of federal authority extending further in scope and the authority of th estates being superceded by federal authority.

    I've admitted to having a hypocritical stance on this particular issue in the past. If I thought for a second that not incorporating the 2nd could result in de-incorporation of oter ammendmets and result in a reduction in federal authority, I'd be more than willing to forgo my individual right to bare arms for the greater good of the nation (Obviously as someone who claims to hold Anti-federalists views, I believe that a strong central government is generally detrimental.)

    But I realize that this isn't going to happen at this point. It's too far gone and there are too few people who hold views like mine. Even your "extreme" small-government types aren't nearly as extreme about it as I am.

    So I basically admit that I'm being a hypocrite on this particular subject. As I have in the past. My thinking is that if my worldview has no chance, I might as well try to keep my individual rights from being infringed in the process.

    And there's no doubt that being born and raised in Chicago, and still living here, is the main factor in my hypocricy. I know I'd have more problems with the ruling if it didn't give me back my rights directly. So I reconcile that by simply admitting to my hypocricy, and explaining my rasoning for willingly engaging in hypocricy.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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