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Thread: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

  1. #171
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    The trouble is that is isn't clear. It's actually very vague. There is a reason it took over two hundred years for the individual right to bear arms to come into existence. It's because reasonable people can disagree. A much better historical understanding of the 2nd Amendment is that it protects the collective right to bear arms. In order to provide for an effective militia, it is entirely reasonable to have laws that restrict personal gun ownership, for instance what if the state militia required all guns be kept in a militia storage facility for better access in time of war?

    I have no problem with an individual right to keep and bear arms. But I do have a problem with hypocritical Justices who claim to want to follow the "original meaning" if the Constitution, but make decision like this that are flagrantly activist. If you want to interpret the 2nd Amendment as a living and growing thing, that's great. But Scalia, Thomas, Alito, they're all violating their expressed judicial philosophy in this and the DC v. Heller decision. It's hypocrisy plain and simple.



    WTF are you on about?



    "shall not be infringed" this decision upheld that.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    WTF are you on about?



    "shall not be infringed" this decision upheld that.
    Wow, this reasoning like that... who can argue.

    What a keen legal mind you have.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Wow, this reasoning like that... who can argue.

    What a keen legal mind you have.

    I will use visuals to simplify things for this crowd.


    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Kind of hard to argue for an intended collective right when the author of the amendement has, himself, indicated it was a right of the people that was coupled with the existence of subordinate governments, not defined by them.
    It's also a "no duh" sort of thing too. Rights can only be held by individuals. There are no collective rights, that gets more into social contract. Rights themselves are innate to individuals, thus a right is by definition individualistic, not colllective.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    I will use visuals to simplify things for this crowd.


    Ya couldn't find a Barbie doll video to illustrate your point?

  6. #176
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Ya couldn't find a Barbie doll video to illustrate your point?
    Would that have made it more comfortable for you???

    Its really a difficult concept...rights of 'the people'...10 amendments expressing individual rights...err...no...9...with a 'government' right tucked in there at #2...with the words 'the people' used identically to the others but only as a means to confuse and obfuscate....

    Never have understood why so many people are so bunged up about the 2nd anyway. The laws pretty much ban ownership of firearms by criminals...so...its not like we have to worry about criminals getting their hands on them. Chicago...DC...the laws work FABulously...just like those drug bans...

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    How in the world is it harder exactly?

    To get a liscenses one must show a proof if legal presense, identity, state residence, pass a safety course, and spend 9 months (if prior to 19) or 30 days (if older than 19) on a learning permit. The states themselves provide courses on safety, preperation, and that help fulfill requirements in public education in classes that count for school credit.

    What is more difficult about obtaining a gun than that?

    Not to mention only one of the two is actually a constitutional right.
    i think you just won my argument for me.. (if there even was one)

    i need only fill out the paperwork and wait a few days to buy a gun. hardly anything of effort when compared to getting a drivers liscense.
    additionally, every few years im required to renew my liscense.. a few more years and im required to be tested again.

    perhaps youre not getting my point or ive really missed yours. otherwise it seems we're in agreement.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Ya couldn't find a Barbie doll video to illustrate your point?



    didn't want to make certain folks horny....
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  9. #179
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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    I will use visuals to simplify things for this crowd.


    Yeah, I've seen that before. Just goes to show Penn and Teller can be just as guilty of bull**** as the people they debunk.

    And, look, I'm working on it, I've been spending the last couple hours reading and it's bearing out my argument. But I'll admit I've been doing some sloppy arguing of my own.

    The 2nd Amendment does not create a "collective" right, nor was this its original intention. I was mistaken about this. However, the thrust of what I've been saying is substantially correct. The "collective" right theory is in fact bunk, but the idea that the individual right is tied inextricably in to the militia clause is not. Simply put, the original intent of the second amendment was to create a right of the people (individually) to keep and bear arms in defense of liberty against tyranny, a right that existed as against Congress. It was not intended to create an individual right to self-defense, hunting or other sport, etc. This is the recent invention of activist judges. This view is borne out by the original intent of the framers, Madison and Jefferson in particular, and is supported by the weight of precedent and scholarship through the 19th century. More to come later in a fuller response with citations.

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    Re: Justices extend gun owner rights nationwide

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    And, look, I'm working on it, I've been spending the last couple hours reading and it's bearing out my argument. But I'll admit I've been doing some sloppy arguing of my own.
    Glad to see you can admit when you are wrong.

    The 2nd Amendment does not create a "collective" right, nor was this its original intention. I was mistaken about this. However, the thrust of what I've been saying is substantially correct. The "collective" right theory is in fact bunk, but the idea that the individual right is tied inextricably in to the militia clause is not.
    And, when you read Heller, you'll see that the court took this into consideration, at length.

    Simply put, the original intent of the second amendment was to create a right of the people (individually) to keep and bear arms in defense of liberty against tyranny, a right that existed as against Congress. It was not intended to create an individual right to self-defense, hunting or other sport, etc
    The collective right to self-defense is necessarily based upon and linked to the individual right to self-defense, as a collection of individuals cannot have a right that each of the individuals of that collective do not individuallty have, seperate from that collective.

    This is the recent invention of activist judges
    Not in any way.

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