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Thread: US can 'no longer drive global growth'

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    Re: US can 'no longer drive global growth'

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Another thing....TVs. TV's are like crack to brass in Iraq and A-stan. it's ****ing ridiculous. Wide screen TVs everywhere, and freaking jumbotrons!
    It is absolutely true that money has been horribly squandered in Iraq and Afgahinstan. But let's get beyond the sophomoric of things. The military was given blank checks and it squandered way too much. But the vast majority of wealth squandered in Iraq and Afghanistan came from checks written by politicians for civilian contractors. Both theatres were economically mismanaged.

    1) How much money would it have saved to enlist Iraqis to fix the infrastructure they knew instead of pouring billions into contractors to fix infrastructure they didn't know? This would have not only saved money, but two other problems for the military. One, local people are less likely to blow up systems they are working on, and two, young people would have busied their time in the employment of bettering their up and coming nation instead of joining insurgencies.

    2) How much money would it have saved to keep our military at proper numbers instead of fooling ourselves into thinking that we are saving money throughout the 90s? The money we saved merely quadrupled when it came time to ride the backs of our military and counter their lack of numbers with paid mercenaries. Keeping our military at proper numbers would not only have saved money, but also solved two problems for the military. One, all combat personel in the AO would have been under military jurisdiction, and two, the image of the military would not have had to rest on the conduct of unprofessional civilian agents.

    Neither Iraq nor Afghanistan should have cost as much as it did. And please don't default to "we shouldn't be there." If the borders of the greater Middle East cannot be amended to reflect the natural ties of blood and faith, we may take it as an article of faith that a portion of the bloodshed in the region will continue to be our own. Pretending that we don't have to be there or involved from time to time is not practical. It only compounds the treasure and blood in the end.
    Last edited by MSgt; 06-24-10 at 10:18 PM.

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    Re: US can 'no longer drive global growth'

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Assumption is the mother of all


    Defense spending is foremost, the one of the bills your nation MUST pay...how else can we expect to maintain adequate strategic influence in the future? Period, but some cuts are doable in DoD (waste, fraud, etc)

    Oh, and before you get teary-eyed on me. Call me cold hearted, but if I am to choose between a carrier battle group and helping fight AIDS in Africa...I'll take the carrier. Screw Africa
    What if you're choosing between 11 carrier battlegroups + AIDS fighting OR 12 carrier battlegroups? How about 14? 20?
    Military spending has diminishing returns like everything else.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  3. #23
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    Re: US can 'no longer drive global growth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Military spending has diminishing returns like everything else.
    Well that depends. The free world has spent much on powerful militaries and the returns are seen everyday in our normal every day lives.

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    Re: US can 'no longer drive global growth'

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    It is absolutely true that money has been horribly squandered in Iraq and Afgahinstan. But let's get beyond the sophomoric of things. The military was given blank checks and it squandered way too much. But the vast majority of wealth squandered in Iraq and Afghanistan came from checks written by politicians for civilian contractors. Both theatres were economically mismanaged.

    1) How much money would it have saved to enlist Iraqis to fix the infrastructure they knew instead of pouring billions into contractors to fix infrastructure they didn't know? This would have not only saved money, but two other problems for the military. One, local people are less likely to blow up systems they are working on, and two, young people would have busied their time in the employment of bettering their up and coming nation instead of joining insurgencies.

    2) How much money would it have saved to keep our military at proper numbers instead of fooling ourselves into thinking that we are saving money throughout the 90s? The money we saved merely quadrupled when it came time to ride the backs of our military and counter their lack of numbers with paid mercenaries. Keeping our military at proper numbers would not only have saved money, but also solved two problems for the military. One, all combat personel in the AO would have been under military jurisdiction, and two, the image of the military would not have had to rest on the conduct of unprofessional civilian agents.

    Neither Iraq nor Afghanistan should have cost as much as it did. And please don't default to "we shouldn't be there." If the borders of the greater Middle East cannot be amended to reflect the natural ties of blood and faith, we may take it as an article of faith that a portion of the bloodshed in the region will continue to be our own. Pretending that we don't have to be there or involved from time to time is not practical. It only compounds the treasure and blood in the end.
    Agreed 1000% There is a lot of waste in defense spending. A lot of companies have taken advantage of the system and stretched out programs and gotten a lot of extra cash out of the government. I'm all for tighter regulations or choke holds on these contracts when companies don't live up to their side of the bargain. Unfortunately, who is going to put a stop to this?

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    Re: US can 'no longer drive global growth'

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Well that depends. The free world has spent much on powerful militaries and the returns are seen everyday in our normal every day lives.
    Meanwhile, North Korea spends pretty much everything it has on its military. Also, we possess enough nuclear weapons to end the world twice. Not really sure why that's helpful!
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: US can 'no longer drive global growth'

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Agreed 1000% There is a lot of waste in defense spending. A lot of companies have taken advantage of the system and stretched out programs and gotten a lot of extra cash out of the government. I'm all for tighter regulations or choke holds on these contracts when companies don't live up to their side of the bargain. Unfortunately, who is going to put a stop to this?
    There are a handful of politicians (McCain, Gramm, Warner, Lieberman, and others) who routinely block the outdated Defense Industry programs while their select General or Admiral lobbies for the next toy. And President Obama obviously has somebody wise in his ear considering the quickness the F/A-22 went to bed. But, I don't see politicians admitting that they were wrong about cutting the military numbers. President Bush was all about killing our numbers. President Clinton was fond of it as well as he rode the backs of the military from one MOOTW to the next while promoting the privatization of the military. The result is President Bush's (Rumsfeld's really) Blackwater and a broken bank.

    Until they acknowledge how wrong they have been the problem will persist. Unfortunately, Washington has become a non-military member's club. How can people - who have deemed themselves too good to serve - know anything about what to fix in these regards? All they hear is some civilian in a suit or some General about to retire telling them that "nothing is too good for our troops." This is true of course, but what they give us isn't good enough. They have a history of providing toys for wars they want us to fight rather than the wars we are going to fight. Money gets wasted and China still hasn't attacked. In the mean time, our troops needed body armor and NBC suits in 2003. No money for such things, but here's another 10 F/A-22s that won't be used in either Iraq or Afghanistan (because they are too expensive to risk).

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  7. #27
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    Re: US can 'no longer drive global growth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Meanwhile, North Korea spends pretty much everything it has on its military. Also, we possess enough nuclear weapons to end the world twice. Not really sure why that's helpful!
    Well, there comes a time when enough nuclear weapons is quite enough. One only needs one fork and one plate to eat right? But North Korea is something different. They do nothing for the world, nor do they seek prosperity in the international arena. They are too busy marching their polished unused military around and launching missiles at nothing so that the people keep focusing on the phantom enemy that threatens them. In their case, they will get no return until they emerge from their self induced solitude.

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    Re: US can 'no longer drive global growth'

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    There are a handful of politicians (McCain, Gramm, Warner, Lieberman, and others) who routinely block the outdated Defense Industry programs while their select General or Admiral lobbies for the next toy. And President Obama obviously has somebody wise in his ear considering the quickness the F/A-22 went to bed. But, I don't see politicians admitting that they were wrong about cutting the military numbers. President Bush was all about killing our numbers. President Clinton was fond of it as well as he rode the backs of the military from one MOOTW to the next while promoting the privatization of the military. The result is President Bush's (Rumsfeld's really) Blackwater and a broken bank.

    Until they acknowledge how wrong they have been the problem will persist. Unfortunately, Washington has become a non-military member's club. How can people - who have deemed themselves too good to serve - know anything about what to fix in these regards? All they hear is some civilian in a suit or some General about to retire telling them that "nothing is too good for our troops." This is true of course, but what they give us isn't good enough. They have a history of providing toys for wars they want us to fight rather than the wars we are going to fight. Money gets wasted and China still hasn't attacked. In the mean time, our troops needed body armor and NBC suits in 2003. No money for such things, but here's another 10 F/A-22s that won't be used in either Iraq or Afghanistan (because they are too expensive to risk).
    The F-22 isn't used in Iraq not because it's too expensive, but because the thing is an air superiority fighter. The /A is bull****, the F-22 is barely even capable of ground attack, much less being well suited for it. The damned thing is built for a war that we're never going to fight.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: US can 'no longer drive global growth'

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    The F-22 isn't used in Iraq not because it's too expensive, but because the thing is an air superiority fighter. The /A is bull****, the F-22 is barely even capable of ground attack, much less being well suited for it. The damned thing is built for a war that we're never going to fight.
    Exactly. A "war with China" has been the rallying cry of every one of our Defense Companies and Washington has eaten it up. We already far outweigh anybody in the world in technology on every level. It's like you alluded to...."How many nukes do we actually need?" Being prepared is one thing. But at this pace we are preparing for the Empire and their Death Star.
    Last edited by MSgt; 06-24-10 at 11:45 PM.

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    Re: US can 'no longer drive global growth'

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Exactly. A "war with China" has been the rallying cry of every one of our Defense Companies and Washington has eaten it up. We already far outweigh anybody in the world in technology on every level. It's like you alluded to...."How many nukes do we actually need?" Being prepared is one thing. But at this pace we are preparing for the Empire and their Death Star.
    That freaking Obama cut X-wings out of the 2011 budget!

    But yeah, the only countries that stand a chance against our OLD planes are either allies or already possess intercontinental nuclear capabilities. Russia can end the planet just like we can. China has some nukes, and we owe them way too much money anyway. Who out there has a halfway decent air force that we've got a remote chance of getting into a fight with?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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