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McChrystal relieved of his command.

Yeah, and I still don't get what you're talking about. What comments? These comments. The comments that got him fired, you know, the ones in Rolling Stone. It's well known he said Obama looked "uncomfortable and intimidated" when he met with military officials for the first time. He made negative comments about Biden and other officials as well. Are you seriously trying to argue that McChrystal is innocent here? I'm perplexed.



Not at all. I'm simply perplexed that stating "uncomfortable and intimidated" especially when true is tatamount to an article 88 violation as you claimed.
 
Not at all. I'm simply perplexed that stating "uncomfortable and intimidated" especially when true is tatamount to an article 88 violation as you claimed.

Even if true is has nothing to do with whether or not it is "contemptuous." Article 88 has nothing to do with truth. Furthermore, even if Gen. McChrystal is innocent of an article 88 violation-- which I don't grant-- he was at the least extremely impolitic, habitually, and deserved to get fired.
 
Even if true is has nothing to do with whether or not it is "contemptuous." Article 88 has nothing to do with truth. Furthermore, even if Gen. McChrystal is innocent of an article 88 violation-- which I don't grant-- he was at the least extremely impolitic, habitually, and deserved to get fired.




Seems like an observation to me, that in its narrow context of statement, seems to simply suggest an observation. :shrug:
 
Seems like an observation to me, that in its narrow context of statement, seems to simply suggest an observation. :shrug:

Yeah, it was a contemptuous observation. Article 88 doesn't make any exceptions for "observations." Nor does it look at the "narrow context" of the statement, but is rather much broader, requiring "That the words used were contemptuous, either in themselves or by virtue of the circumstances under which they were used."
 
Yeah, it was a contemptuous observation. Article 88 doesn't make any exceptions for "observations." Nor does it look at the "narrow context" of the statement, but is rather much broader, requiring "That the words used were contemptuous, either in themselves or by virtue of the circumstances under which they were used."



look I think McChrystal new exactly what he was doing, inviting the left wing rag to trapse around with him, and I have no real issue with Obama relieving him, however it is stupid to think this is an article 88 offense. Just ask some of us who have served, k?
 
look I think McChrystal new exactly what he was doing, inviting the left wing rag to trapse around with him, and I have no real issue with Obama relieving him, however it is stupid to think this is an article 88 offense. Just ask some of us who have served, k?

I appreciate that, and I realize that only a single instance of an article 88 violation has ever been prosecuted. But does that mean McChrystal's words didn't constitute a violation, just because actual prosecution on this article is rare? Let's look at the law, shall we?

Article 88 UCMJ said:
“Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

Contemptuous words about the President and Vice-President, check.

Article 88 UCMJ said:
"(1) That the accused was a commissioned officer of the United States armed forces;"

Check.

Article 88 UCMJ said:
"(2) That the accused used certain words against an official or legislature named in the article;"

Check.

Article 88 UCMJ said:
"(3) That by an act of the accused these words came to the knowledge of a person other than the accused; and"

I'd say that's a big check, considering that it came out in Rolling Stone. Moreover, if you look at this text it doesn't just say "made to a media outlet" it says "came to the knowledge of a person other than the accused." So he can say what he likes about Obama looking at himself in the bathroom mirror, unless somebody is within earshot. And if he made such disrespectful remarks to a reporter, you have to wonder what he said to others in private. One wonders what an investigation would yield in this regard.

Article 88 UCMJ said:
"(4) That the words used were contemptuous, either in themselves or by virtue of the circumstances under which they were used."

I've been over this earlier in this thread, but let me revisit it, since it's the real sticking point. Were the words "contemptuous?" What does "contempt" mean anyway? As Tex pointed out, our friend the Yale professor acknowledges that they were disrespectful. I think we can all agree that they were disrespectful. The USMCA in USA v. Howe, the only case tried on an article 88 violation, held that the word "contemptuous" was used in its plain dictionary meaning. Look in a dictionary under "contempt" and what do you find? Lo and behold, it means "disrespectful." So, check.

I realize that those of you who serve and have served are in a unique position to understand the culture of the military, and those of you who have given this country your service have my everlasting respect and gratitude. But you don't have to have served to be able to read the law.

So, on analysis, I don't see how any reasonable, unbiased person can argue it isn't an article 88 violation. Will he be prosecuted on it, likely not. But that doesn't change the facts.
 
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So what is my bias here? :lol:



The only bias here is what you spewed yesterday calling this man a "disgrace to the uniform", for what crime? Suggesting Obama may be intimidated in front of military brass? :lamo
 
So what is my bias here? :lol:
Frankly, I think you're biased against Obama.

The only bias here is what you spewed yesterday calling this man a "disgrace to the uniform", for what crime? Suggesting Obama may be intimidated in front of military brass? :lamo
I think I've made myself perfectly clear what crime McChrystal committed. If you disagree with the fact that it's an article 88 violation you sure haven't given any reasons. Are you trying to say that McChrystal's comments that Obama was intimidated by military brass were respectful? Or that "Biden? Who's that?" was a sign of respect?
 
Frankly, I think you're biased against Obama.


Actually see my latest thread, I list 4+ big things I think he is doing right. I have also in the past have defended him against some of the more right winged mouth foamers as well. I don't believe him to be a kenyan muslim who smokes crack and does the gay sex.... though I do admit to being biased against some of his management style, and choices. He seems like a likable enough fella. :shrug:




I think I've made myself perfectly clear what crime McChrystal committed. If you disagree with the fact that it's an article 88 violation you sure haven't given any reasons. Are you trying to say that McChrystal's comments that Obama was intimidated by military brass were respectful? Or that "Biden? Who's that?" was a sign of respect?


I don't think it was "dissrespectful" enough for an article 88 charge and the evidence is supported by your point that only what 1 person has been charged with an 88 violation?
 
Actually see my latest thread, I list 4+ big things I think he is doing right. I have also in the past have defended him against some of the more right winged mouth foamers as well. I don't believe him to be a kenyan muslim who smokes crack and does the gay sex.... though I do admit to being biased against some of his management style, and choices. He seems like a likable enough fella. :shrug:
I gotcha. Perhaps I am being unfair of accusing you of bias, so I am sorry about that. But I think your arguments that McChrystal's words weren't contemptuous are very weak.


I don't think it was "dissrespectful" enough for an article 88 charge and the evidence is supported by your point that only what 1 person has been charged with an 88 violation?

You might not think "disrespectful" is enough for an article 88 violation, but the United States Military Court of Appeals in USA v. Howe would disagree with you, and it is their opinion that matters here, not mine or yours. If you admit the comments he made were disrespectful then rationally you admit that they were "contemptuous," since the two words are synonyms and the court regards them as such. The fact that prosecutions on article 88 violations are rare means only that in practice they are seldom followed up on, due to real-world concerns. I would venture to speculate that they usually aren't pursued because they would normally be hard to prove, most disrespectful comments by officers being made in private to people who won't rat them out. Here, proof isn't the issue, but since McChrystal is a political football, it is politically unwise for Obama to pursue 88 charges. But in an ideal world where all laws on the books are followed McChrystal would be looking at a court martial over this.
 
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Actually see my latest thread, I list 4+ big things I think he is doing right. I have also in the past have defended him against some of the more right winged mouth foamers as well. I don't believe him to be a kenyan muslim who smokes crack and does the gay sex.... though I do admit to being biased against some of his management style, and choices. He seems like a likable enough fella. :shrug:

I don't think it was "dissrespectful" enough for an article 88 charge and the evidence is supported by your point that only what 1 person has been charged with an 88 violation?

"I don't believe him to be a kenyan muslim who smokes crack and does the gay sex"

At least not anymore...
 
I gotcha. Perhaps I am being unfair of accusing you of bias, so I am sorry about that. But I think your arguments that McChrystal's words weren't contemptuous are very weak.



I get that often, my advice is to listen to what I say and not listen to what the mouth foamers try to say.... :shrug:


You might not think "disrespectful" is enough for an article 88 violation, but the United States Military Court of Appeals in USA v. Howe would disagree with you, and it is their opinion that matters here, not mine or yours. If you admit the comments he made were disrespectful then rationally you admit that they were "contemptuous," since the two words are synonyms and the court regards them as such. The fact that prosecutions on article 88 violations are rare means only that in practice they are seldom followed up on, due to real-world concerns. I would venture to speculate that they usually aren't pursued because they would normally be hard to prove, most disrespectful comments by officers being made in private to people who won't rat them out. Here, proof isn't the issue, but since McChrystal is a political football, it is politically unwise for Obama to pursue 88 charges. But in an ideal world where all laws on the books are followed McChrystal would be looking at a court martial over this.



:lol: do you have a link to that decision? I would like to see what this howe guy said,.



And no, in an ideal world he would not be tried and convicted for stating obama looked "intimidated".
 
:lol: do you have a link to that decision? I would like to see what this howe guy said,.
Haven't got a link handy but I'll look for one. IIRC he held up a sign at a Vietnam protest implying that LBJ was a "facist" [sic]. Clearly contemptuous/disrespectful there. (That's just an observation, isn't it? and could even arguably be a true one.) The significance of US v. Howe to the present discussion is not that it presents a direct parallel, but that it is a guiding principle for interpretation of the word "contemptuous" in Article 88. I quoted the case earlier in this thread, and the court defines contemptuous according to the Webster's dictionary definition, i.e. "disrespectful." Ergo, disrespect = contempt for purposes of Article 88. So logically if you think that the words McChrystal used were disrespectful, then you are committed to the position that he violated 88. At least, if you want to be reasonable about it.

And no, in an ideal world he would not be tried and convicted for stating obama looked "intimidated".

If that was the only thing he said, then I'd agree with you. But you conveniently neglect to mention his comments about Biden, and the VP is also covered by 88. Not to mention that 88 looks at the totality of the circumstance, not just the isolated remarks, and McChrystal has been engaging in a pattern of disrespect towards the administration even before the Rolling Stone article. Had he said, "he looks intimidated, but that's understandable for a new president, I'll still follow him to hell and back" then there'd be no problem. But you have to look at everything he said in context, not just narrowly at the isolated remarks. Let me just pin you down here, you do agree McChrystal was disrespectful towards Obama and Biden, right?
 
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One is not supposed to critisize the government or the CiC while in uniform.

A group of folks siting around bull****ting about politics and clueless command is possibly technically not allowed, but every one does it. I don't think it would be possible to get people in the military to not bitch about every single superior they have all the way up the chain of command. Bitching was part of being in the military.
 
A group of folks siting around bull****ting about politics and clueless command is possibly technically not allowed, but every one does it. I don't think it would be possible to get people in the military to not bitch about every single superior they have all the way up the chain of command. Bitching was part of being in the military.

Technically not allowed is still "not allowed."
 
A group of folks siting around bull****ting about politics and clueless command is possibly technically not allowed, but every one does it. I don't think it would be possible to get people in the military to not bitch about every single superior they have all the way up the chain of command. Bitching was part of being in the military.




I've seen article 15's over it. In uniform it's a no-no.
 
Haven't got a link handy but I'll look for one. IIRC he held up a sign at a Vietnam protest implying that LBJ was a "facist" [sic]. Clearly contemptuous/disrespectful there. (That's just an observation, isn't it? and could even arguably be a true one.) The significance of US v. Howe to the present discussion is not that it presents a direct parallel, but that it is a guiding principle for interpretation of the word "contemptuous" in Article 88. I quoted the case earlier in this thread, and the court defines contemptuous according to the Webster's dictionary definition, i.e. "disrespectful." Ergo, disrespect = contempt for purposes of Article 88. So logically if you think that the words McChrystal used were disrespectful, then you are committed to the position that he violated 88. At least, if you want to be reasonable about it.


wait, you are comparing "fascist" to "looked intimidated"?

Seriously?

:lamo


If that was the only thing he said, then I'd agree with you. But you conveniently neglect to mention his comments about Biden, and the VP is also covered by 88. Not to mention that 88 looks at the totality of the circumstance, not just the isolated remarks, and McChrystal has been engaging in a pattern of disrespect towards the administration even before the Rolling Stone article. Had he said, "he looks intimidated, but that's understandable for a new president, I'll still follow him to hell and back" then there'd be no problem. But you have to look at everything he said in context, not just narrowly at the isolated remarks. Let me just pin you down here, you do agree McChrystal was disrespectful towards Obama and Biden, right?


What did he say about biden again, specifically?
 
wait, you are comparing "fascist" to "looked intimidated"?

Seriously?

:lamo

No, I'm not. Like I said, it's not a direct parallel. Do I really have to parse everything I say or can you just give me a fair reading the first time? US v. Howe stated explicitly how to read the word "contemptuous" in article 88. There's no argument that McChrystal's comments were disrespectful, even the Yale professor Tex quoted said so. Do you disagree?
BTW, I notice you haven't got a lot of substance to your argument, which so far has consisted mostly of laughing smiley faces. If you disagree with my analysis, why not explain why you think so?



What did he say about biden again, specifically?

He said, "Biden, who's that?" If you can make an argument that his comments about Obama and Biden, taken in their totality, were not disrespectful, then I'd love to hear it. But you can't, you can only make that argument by taking them egregiously out of context.
 
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I've seen article 15's over it. In uniform it's a no-no.

Really? That seems over the top. I can see it, especially in today's military, but it is stupid.

I will retract my comment then, apparently I was wrong. Things seem to have changed.
 
Really? That seems over the top. I can see it, especially in today's military, but it is stupid.

I will retract my comment then, apparently I was wrong. Things seem to have changed.



I've seen it back in 91. i guess it all has to do with the unit and branch you are in..... :shrug:
 
No, I'm not. Like I said, it's not a direct parallel. Do I really have to parse everything I say or can you just give me a fair reading the first time? US v. Howe stated explicitly how to read the word "contemptuous" in article 88. There's no argument that McChrystal's comments were disrespectful, even the Yale professor Tex quoted said so. Do you disagree?
BTW, I notice you haven't got a lot of substance to your argument, which so far has consisted mostly of laughing smiley faces. If you disagree with my analysis, why not explain why you think so?


So there is nothing to compare here. Noted. thanks for the concession.


He said, "Biden, who's that?" If you can make an argument that his comments about Obama and Biden, taken in their totality, were not disrespectful, then I'd love to hear it. But you can't, you can only make that argument by taking them egregiously out of context.


It was dumb, hardly contemptuous to an article 88 charge.
 
So there is nothing to compare here. Noted. thanks for the concession.


Incorrect. There was no concession, as much as you like to purposely misread my posts I don't see how even you could have read on into that:) Howe isn't a direct parallel, but that doesn't mean that there is "nothing to compare." Indeed, I've said repeatedly that what we are comparing is the standard for "contempt" under Article 88 as the court made clear in Howe means "disrespect."

By the way, just because there was only ever one court martial on 88 doesn't mean that there was only one violation. "Numerous officers have been disciplined for criticizing the president. Two Marine Corps officers were administratively punished for published letters to newspapers that were disrespectful to the president "

It was dumb, hardly contemptuous to an article 88 charge.

Say it over and over again, perhaps it will come true. Until then, there rest of us follow the law as it is written. Disrespectful comments are identical to contemptuous comments, according to the USCMA, and McChrystal's comments were disrespectful. If you feel this shouldn't be the case, you are free to take it up with them. But really, I don't care about your opinion as to what should constitute contempt for purposes of Article 88, because the law says otherwise.

I ask you again, do you think McChrystal's comments were disrespectful or not? Try not to dodge the question this time, if you please.
 
Dodge?


Here I'll make it easy for you..


They were out of line, but not a chargable offense. :shrug: Non-judicial punishment and/or resigning is fine. :shrug:
 
Dodge?


Here I'll make it easy for you..


They were out of line, but not a chargable offense. :shrug: Non-judicial punishment and/or resigning is fine. :shrug:

Interesting how you still managed to avoid answering my question. So why is it that non-judicial punishment fine and a court-martial is not? Not a chargeable offense? Why not?
 
Interesting how you still managed to avoid answering my question. So why is it that non-judicial punishment fine and a court-martial is not? Not a chargeable offense? Why not?




What part of "they were out of line" is confusing you my friend? :lamo


and why not? simple case precedence. :shrug:
 
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