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Hoyer: Permanent middle class tax cuts too costly

Agreed, but why anyone thinks we can continue spending without taxing is beyond me. I'm middle class, and would completely understand a modest increase in my taxes.

As would I...but not without a direct curb on spending. Its quite simple really...If the government is going to take in taxes then they should be responsible about how they spend it. If they have run up a 13.5 trillion dollar debt with an allowable ceiling of 15.5 trillion and havent even so much as passed a budget on HOW they are going to spend that money, then taxpayers SHOULD not only object...they should be downright pissed off.

Im a realist. I get that we NEED to have some form of higher taxes if the federal deficit is ever going to be paid down. I also get you cant run even a simple household without a budget and ensuring yout income exceeds your 'outgo'. WHile I know there are some that will stomp their feet and say "not now not ever no new taxes", I believe REASONABLE people of liberal and conservative bent will recognize it is necessary...PROVIDED that it is responsible. It starts with the responsible part...cutting back spending.
 
Re: Steny Hoyer Leaves Open Possibility of Extending Bush Tax Cuts for Middle Class

Incorrect. They pay taxes AND they pass the costs on to the consumer.

So ultimately, they even out their costs.
 
Re: Steny Hoyer Leaves Open Possibility of Extending Bush Tax Cuts for Middle Class

In highly competitive markets, which most products are in pretty damn competitive markets, they rarely can pass such costs on the consumers because if one of them doesn't then the others will lose market share, so corporate taxes most often result in cuts in profit margins.

What markets are you referring to exactly? Your scenario happens, but I would argue that it is outside of the norm, as opposed to the norm.
 
Re: Steny Hoyer Leaves Open Possibility of Extending Bush Tax Cuts for Middle Class

What markets are you referring to exactly? Your scenario happens, but I would argue that it is outside of the norm, as opposed to the norm.

The industry I work in prices based on competition more than cost plus. Their margins are typically 10 to 13% on outside sales. Also because of relatively long lead times in this industry, they have an advantage against overseas operations (our main competition). We have taken an increate of raw material prices of 5% (due to oil) and decided to absord it instead of pass it along to try and keep increasing sales and to try and bring in new customers. It would have been the same with taxes.

The caveat is that what we do (without being too specific here) is pretty much a custom build with each order.
 
Re: Steny Hoyer Leaves Open Possibility of Extending Bush Tax Cuts for Middle Class

The industry I work in prices based on competition more than cost plus. Their margins are typically 10 to 13% on outside sales. Also because of relatively long lead times in this industry, they have an advantage against overseas operations (our main competition). We have taken an increate of raw material prices of 5% (due to oil) and decided to absord it instead of pass it along to try and keep increasing sales and to try and bring in new customers. It would have been the same with taxes.

The caveat is that what we do (without being too specific here) is pretty much a custom build with each order.

Does the company view short term flucuations in the price of oil the same as what might be a permanent tax increase? If you heaped on an additional tax increase of say 2-3% on top of the 5% you said you company has eaten, it would bring your profit margin down to around 2%, which is probably not where you guys want to be. In theory, that would then cause a price hike somewhere down the line huh?
 
Re: Steny Hoyer Leaves Open Possibility of Extending Bush Tax Cuts for Middle Class

Does the company view short term flucuations in the price of oil the same as what might be a permanent tax increase? If you heaped on an additional tax increase of say 2-3% on top of the 5% you said you company has eaten, it would bring your profit margin down to around 2%, which is probably not where you guys want to be. In theory, that would then cause a price hike somewhere down the line huh?

The increases in the price of oil are pretty much viewed to be long term enough for it to be considered that way for pricing, much in the same way we would treat any new regulatory costs or taxes. And while we have profitibility goals (given to us by the board) we are also attempting to grow the business. In our industry, price is important as it relates to what the customer values, so we might be able to get away with increasing price without losing business if we do other things, such as after sales services, better ontime-infull delivery, or other things that will help their business and make them depend on us.

So, in short, the answer is both yes and no depending on where we find ourselves in the market in relation to what the customer is actually looking for beyond a simple price for an object delivered. Different customers will get different pricing based on what they tell us is important. So, we will, of course, take the opportunity to increase prices where we can on which customers we can, but we may not be able to.
 
Re: Steny Hoyer Leaves Open Possibility of Extending Bush Tax Cuts for Middle Class

The increases in the price of oil are pretty much viewed to be long term enough for it to be considered that way for pricing, much in the same way we would treat any new regulatory costs or taxes. And while we have profitibility goals (given to us by the board) we are also attempting to grow the business.

In our industry, price is important as it relates to what the customer values, so we might be able to get away with increasing price without losing business if we do other things, such as after sales services, better ontime-infull delivery, or other things that will help their business and make them depend on us.

You may not be able to answer this really, but reimagine your scenario in which you are not really aggressively trying to grow the business, would the same model apply?

So, in short, the answer is both yes and no depending on where we find ourselves in the market in relation to what the customer is actually looking for beyond a simple price for an object delivered. Different customers will get different pricing based on what they tell us is important. So, we will, of course, take the opportunity to increase prices where we can on which customers we can, but we may not be able to.

You mentioned your company had profit margins of 10-13% on outside sales, is that the same in other departments, assuming you have other departments? For example, is your 10-13% margin supposed to carry another segment of the process that might have a margin of 1-2% or might even be operating at a loss?
 
Re: Steny Hoyer Leaves Open Possibility of Extending Bush Tax Cuts for Middle Class

In highly competitive markets, which most products are in pretty damn competitive markets, they rarely can pass such costs on the consumers because if one of them doesn't then the others will lose market share, so corporate taxes most often result in cuts in profit margins.

I can agree with that.
 
Re: Steny Hoyer Leaves Open Possibility of Extending Bush Tax Cuts for Middle Class

So ultimately, they even out their costs.

Where there's not a lot of competition - that's correct.
 
Re: Steny Hoyer Leaves Open Possibility of Extending Bush Tax Cuts for Middle Class

You may not be able to answer this really, but reimagine your scenario in which you are not really aggressively trying to grow the business, would the same model apply?

Not sure, it depends on what we think the customers are willing to accept.

You mentioned your company had profit margins of 10-13% on outside sales, is that the same in other departments, assuming you have other departments? For example, is your 10-13% margin supposed to carry another segment of the process that might have a margin of 1-2% or might even be operating at a loss?

Over the whole company, we typically run about 30 to 35% ebit, I am not sure what our EBITDA is though. We are divisionalized though, so I can really speak with accuracy for the one I am working in. However, the other divisions make things that are more common commodities that I believe run at a lower margin. However, we have some advantage because we are a well known and trusted brand and you probably have our one of products either in your car or in your house somewhere.

However, what I do know is that the marketing and sales people are the ones who determine pricing and typically price our products independently of its costs, as long as we are not running at a loss. What we typically do is create a new product at a significant margin, than over time that advantage will drop and become less profitable, but only to renew the cycle once again with some other great and wonderful thing. But again, the main driving force behind pricing is not cost plus, but market research.

Overall, additional costs would make us less profitable, but probably not change our approach unless it was something significant and industry changing.
 
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Well the greatest concentration of wealth is in the top 10%... I would suggest that would be the place to go. Middle class is being destroyed. Tax the rich.. it is inevitable. Sales tax is disproportionately punishing to middle and lower incomes. Soon America will be a country of only rich.. and working poor. Tax cuts will cause an even greater deficit and force an overly deep cut in spending .. at the worst time. Private sector won’t pick up the slack and unemployment will go higher. Increased spending is more appropriate. The government should be throwing money into green technology and technical advances in biotech and fostering manufacturing business in these fields to be exported.

Stop pandering to the wealthy and look after the people. You will increase debt further by the general population by creating poor low wage service sector jobs hand over fist. America needs manufactured exports to come out of this mess.

http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2010/images/top_ten_percent_income_share.jpg
 
Well the greatest concentration of wealth is in the top 10%... I would suggest that would be the place to go. Middle class is being destroyed. Tax the rich.. it is inevitable. Sales tax is disproportionately punishing to middle and lower incomes. Soon America will be a country of only rich.. and working poor. Tax cuts will cause an even greater deficit and force an overly deep cut in spending .. at the worst time. Private sector won’t pick up the slack and unemployment will go higher. Increased spending is more appropriate. The government should be throwing money into green technology and technical advances in biotech and fostering manufacturing business in these fields to be exported.

Stop pandering to the wealthy and look after the people. You will increase debt further by the general population by creating poor low wage service sector jobs hand over fist. America needs manufactured exports to come out of this mess.

http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2010/images/top_ten_percent_income_share.jpg

Brilliant. Target the people that afre successsful and the ONLY people that are driving the economy instead of controlling government spending and applying modest but fair tax increases. Because INCREASING the tax burden on the wealthy has a HISTORY of positive impact on the economy...
 
Re: Steny Hoyer Leaves Open Possibility of Extending Bush Tax Cuts for Middle Class

No, the middle class tax cuts are not too costly. The government spending is too costly. The government is just not able to afford letting the tax cuts stand because they are a bunch of lunatic, public money spending, whores. How about a government spending cut equal to the middle class tax cut you idiot?
 
The funny part is that the coming "tax hike" is just expiration of previous TEMPORARY tax cuts. Somehow, though, Obama is raising our taxes. I guess the more accurate headline "Congress decides not to extend temporary tax cuts" isn't as exciting.

On the spending side, lots of people like to harp on PORK and EARMARKS but in reality these are drops in the bucket. Defense-related spending, medicare, and social security are the big-ticket items that need to come down.

I always appreciate someone that "gets it". Yes, there is no tax increase. If congress does nothing, the temporary tax decrease expires. Calling it a Obama tax increase is a misnomer. It would actually be more accurate to call it a Bush tax increase as the legislation was passed and signed under his administration. I am not advocating such, just that its legislation passed during the Republican administration and Republican congress and it was temporary by design. Of course, the Republicans seem to own the political rhetoric in this country, largely because of the conservative media (Fox and radio)... so they create these soundbites and the dems do a poor job of refuting them.

Pork and earmarks have existed since the beginning of time. Without pork, nothing controversial would ever get through congress, sad to say. I sounds so simple to eliminate, but its rather impractical to ever get passed.

Yes, you can't have any real budget cuts without going after defense, social security and medicare. Given that medicare is nothing but a very basic safety net, there is little you can do there except continue to clean-up system fraud and improve delivery, both which take some capital investment (which is a short-term adverse affect on budgets). Social security can only be attacked from the standpoint of adjusting eligibility ages as we are not exactly enriching our seniors with benefits. Its just basic, and the only thing standing between poverty and some degree of self-sustainability for 65% of our seniors. Instead, we have to encourage our workers to work to 70 or 75 but broaden disability. That is a tough sell to the baby-boomer population that thinks they are nearing the finish line. Defense is the 3rd rail.... though we spend more on defense than all of the other nations in the world put together, its just politically impossible to go very far here. All in, there are not deep, deep cuts to be had anywhere.

My favorite budget cut would be to cut congressional pay and benefits. These guys waste more time in their political wrangling, committee investigations, fact-finding trips, legislative obstructionism, campaigning on government funds.... the job should become less desirable. For our strict constitutionalist friends, our founding fathers did not advocate for a ruling class where members served for life, but rather for a government of the citizenry where members served.
 
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I always appreciate someone that "gets it". Yes, there is no tax increase. If congress does nothing, the temporary tax decrease expires. Calling it a Obama tax increase is a misnomer.

We're all aware that the tax cuts were temporary, but the point is that Obama didn't pledge not to pass any new tax increases after these expired, he pledged not to let these expire for people making under $250k. Now Hoyer is floating a trial balloon to see how people respond to that.

Pork and earmarks have existed since the beginning of time. Without pork, nothing controversial would ever get through congress, sad to say. I sounds so simple to eliminate, but its rather impractical to ever get passed.

This isn't quite true, as earmarks (at the level we see them today) are a relatively recent development. In 1970, the Defense Bill had 12 earmarks. In 2005, it had 2700. In 1955, the Highway Bill had 2 earmarks. In 2005, it had 6400.

The idea that we can't survive without earmarks is pushed by the people who want to keep benefiting from those earmarks. In reality, we could eliminate or drastically curtail earmarks without much of an impact on government at all.

Yes, you can't have any real budget cuts without going after defense, social security and medicare. Given that medicare is nothing but a very basic safety net, there is little you can do there except continue to clean-up system fraud and improve delivery, both which take some capital investment (which is a short-term adverse affect on budgets).

Medicare is the single largest threat to long-term US solvency. Medicare's unfunded liability is $89 trillion, more than six times that of Social Security.

Social security can only be attacked from the standpoint of adjusting eligibility ages as we are not exactly enriching our seniors with benefits. Its just basic, and the only thing standing between poverty and some degree of self-sustainability for 65% of our seniors. Instead, we have to encourage our workers to work to 70 or 75 but broaden disability.

The fact that it's the only thing standing between 65% of seniors and poverty is the problem with Social Security. The program was never envisioned as a retirement plan, but as an emergency safety net. For most of its history, social security was just a small part of seniors plans for retirement. Now, our society thinks that it doesn't need to bother saving much for retirement because that SS check will always be there waiting for them. That's not sustainable in the long term.

Defense is the 3rd rail.... though we spend more on defense than all of the other nations in the world put together, its just politically impossible to go very far here. All in, there are not deep, deep cuts to be had anywhere.

The fact that something is politically difficult does not mean it cannot or should not be done. This applies to cutting Medicare, cutting SS, and cutting defense spending.

My favorite budget cut would be to cut congressional pay and benefits. These guys waste more time in their political wrangling, committee investigations, fact-finding trips, legislative obstructionism, campaigning on government funds.... the job should become less desirable.

This would actually be the worst place I can think of to make cuts. I know it's a standard populist argument, but it really doesn't reflect how Washington actually works. Being a Congressman does not pay much at all, once you consider that you have to buy/rent another home, travel constantly, etc. The average Congressman is forced to be away from his family all week, is constantly under a microscope, works from sun up to sun down (and on weekends) and has little job security. As it is, the vast majority of Congressmen are independently wealthy because the average qualified person who is not a Congressman can make 2-10 times as much in the private sector.

I very much doubt that cutting Congressional pay and benefits will actually improve the quality of representation.
 
IMHO, the tax cuts should be permanent, and the government should live within its means, as was intended.
 
IMHO, the tax cuts should be permanent, and the government should live within its means, as was intended.

So taxes can only go down, never up?
.... ok then.
 
So taxes can only go down, never up?
.... ok then.

If the government want's more taxes, then they should get the **** outta the way of the private sector and let us provide their additional tax revenue for them.

When the current gubmint learns the relationaship between the private sector making money and the government making money, everyone will be better off.
 
If the government want's more taxes, then they should get the **** outta the way of the private sector and let us provide their additional tax revenue for them.

When the current gubmint learns the relationaship between the private sector making money and the government making money, everyone will be better off.

So is it your assetion that decreasing taxes will always result in an increase in tax revenue?
 
obama has signed two tax cuts so far.

the corporate media does not focus on that.
 
govt did get out of the way which resulted in the financial meltdown.
 
So is it your assetion that decreasing taxes will always result in an increase in tax revenue?

Indirectly, yes. If you create a more business friendly environment, you will see more tax revenue, because of the higher volume of money earned by businesses and the employees of those businesses.

I'm in the trucking business. If I have to pay less business taxes, that makes it easier for me to buy things, such as tires, that have an outrageous federal excise tax attached to them and I can more easily pay my federal heavy road use tax and payroll tax.

The federal government has so many taxes in place, that they actually cancel each other out. It's rediculous.


Bush saw a record number in tax receipts, which resulted in more tax revenue. Can't argue with those facts.

Yes, that is my assertion.
 
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lbj raised taxes which led to a surplus in 1969. reagan raised taxes twice.
 
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