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Thread: Hoyer: Permanent middle class tax cuts too costly

  1. #41
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    Re: Hoyer: Permanent middle class tax cuts too costly

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    The funny part is that the coming "tax hike" is just expiration of previous TEMPORARY tax cuts. Somehow, though, Obama is raising our taxes. I guess the more accurate headline "Congress decides not to extend temporary tax cuts" isn't as exciting.

    On the spending side, lots of people like to harp on PORK and EARMARKS but in reality these are drops in the bucket. Defense-related spending, medicare, and social security are the big-ticket items that need to come down.
    I always appreciate someone that "gets it". Yes, there is no tax increase. If congress does nothing, the temporary tax decrease expires. Calling it a Obama tax increase is a misnomer. It would actually be more accurate to call it a Bush tax increase as the legislation was passed and signed under his administration. I am not advocating such, just that its legislation passed during the Republican administration and Republican congress and it was temporary by design. Of course, the Republicans seem to own the political rhetoric in this country, largely because of the conservative media (Fox and radio)... so they create these soundbites and the dems do a poor job of refuting them.

    Pork and earmarks have existed since the beginning of time. Without pork, nothing controversial would ever get through congress, sad to say. I sounds so simple to eliminate, but its rather impractical to ever get passed.

    Yes, you can't have any real budget cuts without going after defense, social security and medicare. Given that medicare is nothing but a very basic safety net, there is little you can do there except continue to clean-up system fraud and improve delivery, both which take some capital investment (which is a short-term adverse affect on budgets). Social security can only be attacked from the standpoint of adjusting eligibility ages as we are not exactly enriching our seniors with benefits. Its just basic, and the only thing standing between poverty and some degree of self-sustainability for 65% of our seniors. Instead, we have to encourage our workers to work to 70 or 75 but broaden disability. That is a tough sell to the baby-boomer population that thinks they are nearing the finish line. Defense is the 3rd rail.... though we spend more on defense than all of the other nations in the world put together, its just politically impossible to go very far here. All in, there are not deep, deep cuts to be had anywhere.

    My favorite budget cut would be to cut congressional pay and benefits. These guys waste more time in their political wrangling, committee investigations, fact-finding trips, legislative obstructionism, campaigning on government funds.... the job should become less desirable. For our strict constitutionalist friends, our founding fathers did not advocate for a ruling class where members served for life, but rather for a government of the citizenry where members served.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 06-25-10 at 11:00 AM.

  2. #42
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    Re: Hoyer: Permanent middle class tax cuts too costly

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    I always appreciate someone that "gets it". Yes, there is no tax increase. If congress does nothing, the temporary tax decrease expires. Calling it a Obama tax increase is a misnomer.
    We're all aware that the tax cuts were temporary, but the point is that Obama didn't pledge not to pass any new tax increases after these expired, he pledged not to let these expire for people making under $250k. Now Hoyer is floating a trial balloon to see how people respond to that.

    Pork and earmarks have existed since the beginning of time. Without pork, nothing controversial would ever get through congress, sad to say. I sounds so simple to eliminate, but its rather impractical to ever get passed.
    This isn't quite true, as earmarks (at the level we see them today) are a relatively recent development. In 1970, the Defense Bill had 12 earmarks. In 2005, it had 2700. In 1955, the Highway Bill had 2 earmarks. In 2005, it had 6400.

    The idea that we can't survive without earmarks is pushed by the people who want to keep benefiting from those earmarks. In reality, we could eliminate or drastically curtail earmarks without much of an impact on government at all.

    Yes, you can't have any real budget cuts without going after defense, social security and medicare. Given that medicare is nothing but a very basic safety net, there is little you can do there except continue to clean-up system fraud and improve delivery, both which take some capital investment (which is a short-term adverse affect on budgets).
    Medicare is the single largest threat to long-term US solvency. Medicare's unfunded liability is $89 trillion, more than six times that of Social Security.

    Social security can only be attacked from the standpoint of adjusting eligibility ages as we are not exactly enriching our seniors with benefits. Its just basic, and the only thing standing between poverty and some degree of self-sustainability for 65% of our seniors. Instead, we have to encourage our workers to work to 70 or 75 but broaden disability.
    The fact that it's the only thing standing between 65% of seniors and poverty is the problem with Social Security. The program was never envisioned as a retirement plan, but as an emergency safety net. For most of its history, social security was just a small part of seniors plans for retirement. Now, our society thinks that it doesn't need to bother saving much for retirement because that SS check will always be there waiting for them. That's not sustainable in the long term.

    Defense is the 3rd rail.... though we spend more on defense than all of the other nations in the world put together, its just politically impossible to go very far here. All in, there are not deep, deep cuts to be had anywhere.
    The fact that something is politically difficult does not mean it cannot or should not be done. This applies to cutting Medicare, cutting SS, and cutting defense spending.

    My favorite budget cut would be to cut congressional pay and benefits. These guys waste more time in their political wrangling, committee investigations, fact-finding trips, legislative obstructionism, campaigning on government funds.... the job should become less desirable.
    This would actually be the worst place I can think of to make cuts. I know it's a standard populist argument, but it really doesn't reflect how Washington actually works. Being a Congressman does not pay much at all, once you consider that you have to buy/rent another home, travel constantly, etc. The average Congressman is forced to be away from his family all week, is constantly under a microscope, works from sun up to sun down (and on weekends) and has little job security. As it is, the vast majority of Congressmen are independently wealthy because the average qualified person who is not a Congressman can make 2-10 times as much in the private sector.

    I very much doubt that cutting Congressional pay and benefits will actually improve the quality of representation.
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  3. #43
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    Re: Hoyer: Permanent middle class tax cuts too costly

    IMHO, the tax cuts should be permanent, and the government should live within its means, as was intended.
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    Re: Hoyer: Permanent middle class tax cuts too costly

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    IMHO, the tax cuts should be permanent, and the government should live within its means, as was intended.
    So taxes can only go down, never up?
    .... ok then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Hoyer: Permanent middle class tax cuts too costly

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    So taxes can only go down, never up?
    .... ok then.
    If the government want's more taxes, then they should get the **** outta the way of the private sector and let us provide their additional tax revenue for them.

    When the current gubmint learns the relationaship between the private sector making money and the government making money, everyone will be better off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Hoyer: Permanent middle class tax cuts too costly

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    If the government want's more taxes, then they should get the **** outta the way of the private sector and let us provide their additional tax revenue for them.

    When the current gubmint learns the relationaship between the private sector making money and the government making money, everyone will be better off.
    So is it your assetion that decreasing taxes will always result in an increase in tax revenue?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Hoyer: Permanent middle class tax cuts too costly

    obama has signed two tax cuts so far.

    the corporate media does not focus on that.

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    Re: Hoyer: Permanent middle class tax cuts too costly

    govt did get out of the way which resulted in the financial meltdown.

  9. #49
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    Re: Hoyer: Permanent middle class tax cuts too costly

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    So is it your assetion that decreasing taxes will always result in an increase in tax revenue?
    Indirectly, yes. If you create a more business friendly environment, you will see more tax revenue, because of the higher volume of money earned by businesses and the employees of those businesses.

    I'm in the trucking business. If I have to pay less business taxes, that makes it easier for me to buy things, such as tires, that have an outrageous federal excise tax attached to them and I can more easily pay my federal heavy road use tax and payroll tax.

    The federal government has so many taxes in place, that they actually cancel each other out. It's rediculous.


    Bush saw a record number in tax receipts, which resulted in more tax revenue. Can't argue with those facts.

    Yes, that is my assertion.
    Last edited by apdst; 06-26-10 at 12:38 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Hoyer: Permanent middle class tax cuts too costly

    lbj raised taxes which led to a surplus in 1969. reagan raised taxes twice.

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