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Thread: Supreme Court upholds law barring "material support" to terrorist groups

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    Supreme Court upholds law barring "material support" to terrorist groups

    This is good news.


    FOXNews.com - Supreme Court upholds law barring "material support" to terrorist groups
    WASHINGTON (AP) The Supreme Court has upheld a federal law that bars "material support" to foreign terrorist organizations, rejecting a free speech challenge from humanitarian aid groups.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Supreme Court upholds law barring "material support" to terrorist groups

    You mean there was ever a question?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Supreme Court upholds law barring "material support" to terrorist groups

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    You mean there was ever a question?
    Apparently those terrorist supporter groups thought different.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Supreme Court upholds law barring "material support" to terrorist groups

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    This is good news.


    FOXNews.com - Supreme Court upholds law barring "material support" to terrorist groups
    WASHINGTON (AP) — The Supreme Court has upheld a federal law that bars "material support" to foreign terrorist organizations, rejecting a free speech challenge from humanitarian aid groups.
    Gawd, I wish the papers would stop this idiotic practice of attaching the word "humanitarian" to Jihadist groups.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Supreme Court upholds law barring "material support" to terrorist groups

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Gawd, I wish the papers would stop this idiotic practice of attaching the word "humanitarian" to Jihadist groups.
    Ironic, considering the name of the case in question is Holder v. Humanitarian Law Project. There is more to this case than people seem to realize, there are issues of freedom of speech and freedom of association at play, not merely there simplistic question of labeling groups "jihadist" or not.

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    Re: Supreme Court upholds law barring "material support" to terrorist groups

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Ironic, considering the name of the case in question is Holder v. Humanitarian Law Project. There is more to this case than people seem to realize, there are issues of freedom of speech and freedom of association at play, not merely there simplistic question of labeling groups "jihadist" or not.
    Material support is not speech. Look it up in the dictionary. The most basic definition of speech is the expression of thoughts, feelings and other things through the articulation of words.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Supreme Court upholds law barring "material support" to terrorist groups

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Material support is not speech. Look it up in the dictionary. The most basic definition of speech is the expression of thoughts, feelings and other things through the articulation of words.
    I don't need to look it up in a dictionary, I agree with you. It is association, however, and freedom of association is protected under the first amendment. I haven't been able to find the opinion anywhere yet, so I have to reserve my judgment as to whether this case was rightly decided or not.

    Anybody know where I can find the text of this opinion?
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 06-21-10 at 12:55 PM.

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    Re: Supreme Court upholds law barring "material support" to terrorist groups

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Material support is not speech. Look it up in the dictionary. The most basic definition of speech is the expression of thoughts, feelings and other things through the articulation of words.
    Agreed. Material support is not the same thing as protected speech.

    From the law in question:

    2339A(b)(1)(2)(3):
    (1) the term "material support or resources" means any property, tangible or intangible, or service, including currency or monetary instruments or financial securities, financial services, lodging, training, expert advice or assistance, safehouses, false documentation or identification, communications equipment, facilities, weapons, lethal substances, explosives, personnel (1 or more individuals who may be or include oneself), and transportation, except medicine or religious materials;

    (2) the term "training" means instruction or teaching designed to impart a specific skill, as opposed to general knowledge; and

    (3) the term "expert advice or assistance" means advice or assistance derived from scientific, technical or other specialized knowledge.


    2339B (a)(1):
    Whoever knowingly provides material support or resources to a foreign terrorist organization, or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 15 years, or both, and, if the death of any person results, shall be imprisoned for any term of years or for life. To violate this paragraph, a person must have knowledge that the organization is a designated terrorist organization…

    The definition of “material support or resources” is clear. Moreover, those who provide such material support or resources “must have knowledge that the organization is a designated terrorist organization.” Furthermore, the statute is quite specific with respect to defining “training” and “expert advice or assistance.” Hence, the Supreme Court found—rightly in my view—that free speech protections were not violated by the statute on account of its being overly vague, as had been asserted by Humanitarian Law Project.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 06-21-10 at 01:07 PM.

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    Re: Supreme Court upholds law barring "material support" to terrorist groups

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Anybody know where I can find the text of this opinion?
    http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-1498.pdf

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    Re: Supreme Court upholds law barring "material support" to terrorist groups

    Will this same ruling apply to the government? We have supported various groups currently labeled terrorists today as part of our past cold war policy. I agree that giving money is not the same thing as speech, but I wonder how consistent this ruling is going to be applied.

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