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Thread: Missouri man's incendiary sign on U.S. 71 draws fire

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    Re: Missouri man's incendiary sign on U.S. 71 draws fire

    I pay more for many things in order to buy locally.

    Part of personal responsibility is making personal sacrifices for the greater good of your community.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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    Re: Missouri man's incendiary sign on U.S. 71 draws fire

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I nevr said that.
    No, but alms did, I was replying to both of you.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    So, facism is the answer? Mmmm'kay!
    And I never said that. I might be talking about economic isolationism, and if you think that amounts to fascism you have a woefully inadequate understanding of both history and political science.

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    Re: Missouri man's incendiary sign on U.S. 71 draws fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    No, but alms did, I was replying to both of you.



    And I never said that. I might be talking about economic isolationism, and if you think that amounts to fascism you have a woefully inadequate understanding of both history and political science.
    Facism is exactly what you're talking about. Corporations that are privately owned and government run. You sure as hell aren't talking about Capitalism.
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    Re: Missouri man's incendiary sign on U.S. 71 draws fire

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Facism is exactly what you're talking about. Corporations that are privately owned and government run.
    That's not what I'm talking about at all. What I am talking about is a government that regulates privately owned corporations with the protection of its own citizens in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You sure as hell aren't talking about Capitalism.
    And neither are you. At least, neither of us is talking about "pure" capitalism, and it is a gross misunderstanding of the second law of thermodynamics to assume that any such system of anarchocapitalism can exist outside a vacuum. What you're talking about are artificial market restrictions that favor multinational corporations and an elite few robber-barons. What I'm talking about is an artificial market that favors the people of the United States.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 06-22-10 at 12:18 PM.

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    Re: Missouri man's incendiary sign on U.S. 71 draws fire

    He should have just painted the first question: "Are you a producer or a parasite?" Everyone needs to look inside themselves to see how to answer this question. Are you in middle management, used car salesman, work in the financial district, or own a Pawn shop? Guess what? You don't produce anything tangible. You simply position yourself to make money from people by shuffling papers. You may provide a service. That's why you get paid, yet you don't produce anything. When I heard a few years back that America was going to become a nation of service providers I had a bad gut reaction. You can't shift the economic standing of a nation that far away from production and expect to get away with it.

    I wouldn't have burned his trailer. I'd paint over the words 'Democratic Party' and replace it with Republican Party, because this sounds like fun!
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    Re: Missouri man's incendiary sign on U.S. 71 draws fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    These are very single-minded ways of looking at the issue.
    You discarded the entire body of Adam Smith's work as "irrelevant dogma" and you're calling me single-minded? That's funny.

    To say that outsourcing benefits consumers by providing lower prices ignores the fact that it sends jobs away from this economy.
    I didn't ignore that; in fact, I explicitly acknowledged it. Please, don't misrepresent my positions.

    What good are lower prices without jobs?
    Who said anything about lower prices without jobs? I'm saying we can have both.

    We buy the goods with our money that then goes overseas and becomes their money, slowly draining our economy. It's overall hurting our economy to lose manufacturing jobs, just look at Detroit, to claim it's a net positive is disingenuous.
    Do you know how much more expensive a car would be if there was no outsourcing? Why do you think you can just ignore the massive premium that would come attached to purely American-made products?

    OR we could enforce more stringent restriction on companies who decide to take advantage of cheap overseas labor by refusing to allow the import of overseas manufactured goods.
    As long as you're willing to pay much more for virtually everything you buy this shouldn't be a problem. And what gives you the right to restrict my economic choices?

    There is more than one way to skin a cat, and instead of relaxing laws that protect workers we should force the multinationals to provide their jobs in the economy they expect to sell their goods and services to. I know it's hard for some koolaid drinking conservatives to believe but the so-called free makert is not the best decision-maker, and government can actually be a force for good if it works to protect our economy.
    So, I'm a single-minded, Koolaid-drinking conservative? What makes you think I'm a conservative?

    Insults aside, the idea that you can force multinationals to provide jobs strictly in the market they plan to sell to is silly. Undercutting profit motive will only push more jobs overseas; protectionism is a failed economic ideology that results in anemic growth and stagnation.

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    Re: Missouri man's incendiary sign on U.S. 71 draws fire

    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    You discarded the entire body of Adam Smith's work as "irrelevant dogma" and you're calling me single-minded? That's funny.
    According to wikipedia, "Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization: it is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or from which diverged."

    I'm not saying that Smith is entirely wrong about mere descriptions of how economies behave, but it seems that you and other conservatives use his concept of the invisible hand as a dogmatic principle that the free market will always sort everything out for the best, as if government regulation is just "getting in the way" of some free market utopia.

    You can't just use Smith's incomplete and archaic theories to justify economic ignorance. You ask me how much a car will cost if there is no outsourcing? But TANSTAAFL applies whether there is outsourcing or not. Outsourcing overseas is not the panacea you seem to think it is. Either we will pay a higher price for the car and have that money continue to circulate in our economy, or we pay a lower price and bleed that money into a rival economy. If it continues to circulate in our economy, we will have paid more for the car but the money will eventually come back to us like a rebate in the form of a more robust domestic economy with greater productivity and more opportunities locally. If we send the money to China then it's gone. Either way the same price is paid, the question is who profits from that purchase of a car? I say: let the American people profit. You say: Let multinational robber barons and foreign economies profit.

    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    So, I'm a single-minded, Koolaid-drinking conservative? What makes you think I'm a conservative?
    If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    Insults aside, the idea that you can force multinationals to provide jobs strictly in the market they plan to sell to is silly. Undercutting profit motive will only push more jobs overseas; protectionism is a failed economic ideology that results in anemic growth and stagnation.
    What you're doing here, in psychological terms, is called "projection." The only failed economic ideology I see is the de-regulatory Republican policies that got us into the mess we're in now. Deregulation and outsourcing is what leads to anemic growth.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 06-22-10 at 01:27 PM.

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    Re: Missouri man's incendiary sign on U.S. 71 draws fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I pay more for many things in order to buy locally.

    Part of personal responsibility is making personal sacrifices for the greater good of your community.
    Well, paying more to prop up inefficient enterprises only delays the inevitable.
    The business should find out how to be more efficient or find justification for higher prices so consumers will buy. Most consumers don't treat businesses as charities, willing to pay more; ask Wal Mart.

    They save the average family about $2,000 per year. If they stopped doing what made Wally World, Wally World... someone else would come in and kick their asses.

    If the price can be justified... OK... but if it's a "personal sacrifice", an act of charity, I see the business as one that will eventually fail.

    I might pay a supplier marginally higher rates if he has the items I need, decent terms, fast service, friendly and easy to deal with individuals or all four. Otherwise it's going to be shopped for the lowest price.

    .
    Last edited by zimmer; 06-22-10 at 01:28 PM.
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    Re: Missouri man's incendiary sign on U.S. 71 draws fire

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Well, paying more to prop up inefficient enterprises only delays the inevitable.
    The business should find out how to be more efficient or find justification for higher prices so consumers will buy. Consumers don't treat businesses as charities, willing to pay more; ask Wal Mart.
    They save the average family about $2,000 per year. If they stopped doing what made Wally World, Wally World... someone else would come in and kick their asses.

    If the price can be justified... OK... but if it's a "personal sacrifice", an act of charity, the business will eventually fail.

    I might pay a supplier marginally higher rates if he has the items I need, decent terms, fast service, friendly and easy to deal with individuals or all four. Otherwise it's going to be shopped for the lowest price.

    I don't see business as charity.

    .
    First, cheaper doesn't mean "more efficient". It usually means lower quality and, well, cheaper.

    Next, I can't control the idocy of other people who decide to shoot themselves in the foot by looking at the short-term gains they recieve by shopping at megastores and such. When it's their job that gets outsourced due to their inability to have any long-term planning.

    Many of th epeople I know who shop at walmart are totally replaceable in thier jobs. They are at high risk for outsourcing. They don't have any legitmate skills and their ultimate fate will probably be working at wal-mart themselves, and thus making a lower wage, and requiring them to look even more closely at their meager savings from wal-mart with appreciation.

    Although if they had the cop-on to have avoided it in the first place, they could have kept their jobs and higher incomes by not patronizing these places simply because they were short-sighted and it provided meager gains.

    On top of that, they'll constantly bitch about the lower quality of their goods and the horse**** service they receive, while I continue to enjoy being treated like a king at the establishments I frequent.

    If I went to walmart instead, I'd spend as much time being frustrated by teh pure crap that I'm buying as I currently do being treated well by the small-businesses I help maintain.

    The problem isn't that people want better service. IF that was the case, coporations would fail immediately due to their shoddy customer service. Even the good ones aren't **** compared to a small local business.

    What people want is cheaper. The only thing that matters to them is that they "saved" 20 cents on their roll of toilet paper. It'll be great to wipe the blood from their assholes when they get ****ed in the future.

    I don't expect or want the government to step in, however. I would prefer to see peopel stop ****ing themselves through their shortsighted focus on immediate gratification. I think this is one of the biggest problems in American society today. That need for immediate gratification and a comlete and total inability to withold gratification. We have become a shortsighted nation that demands immediate results, no matter how bad it ****s the future up.

    Why is their a credit crisis? Immediate gratification.

    Why do we have an incompetant and corruptgovernemnt? Immediate gratification.

    Why are corporations sending jobs to other countries? Immediate gratification.

    When I talk about personal sacrifice, I mean those short-term sacrifices that are of absolutel importance for long-term gains.

    Just because I can buy a bunch of **** I don't really need cheaply at walmart doesn't mean I should buy a bunch of **** I don't need cheaply at walmart.

    If we really analyzed how much people save by buying things at walmart, how much of those savings would be on crap they didn't need in teh first place?

    I'm guessing quite a bit of it would be.

    Now we've got people who live in shacks who have 50 inch HDTV's. They might have "saved" $500 on that TV, but they had to spend $1000 in order to do so. If they never bought it in the first place, they'd have saved $1000 of real money instead of saving $500 of imaginary money they never had to begin with.

    It took a couple of years for me to break my wife of the habit of coming home with crap we didn't need and telling me how much she "saved" on it because it was on sale. That's the walmart mentality in a nutshell.

    Simply because it is sold there cheaper than at other places doesn't mean it isn't more expesive to buy it there.

    I don't begrude the corporations for making their money on other people's foolishness, though. It's their duty to exploit foolishness for the good of their shareholders and the bottom line.

    What I'm talking about is how I won't be party to it. I'd rather make short-term "sacrifices" for long term gains. It isn't charity. It's having a long-term outlook on life.

    That's part of the reason why I'm working to enter a field that can't be outsourced.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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    Re: Missouri man's incendiary sign on U.S. 71 draws fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    First, cheaper doesn't mean "more efficient". It usually means lower quality and, well, cheaper.
    Agree. Sometimes you don't need the best quality though.

    Next, I can't control the idocy of other people who decide to shoot themselves in the foot by looking at the short-term gains they recieve by shopping at megastores and such. When it's their job that gets outsourced due to their inability to have any long-term planning.
    Megastore have advantages over the Mom & Pop. In purchasing for example, the Mega's have not only buying power but individuals trained for specific products.

    Often discount places sell a similar product, slightly altered by the OEM.

    Many of th epeople I know who shop at walmart are totally replaceable in thier jobs. They are at high risk for outsourcing. They don't have any legitmate skills and their ultimate fate will probably be working at wal-mart themselves, and thus making a lower wage, and requiring them to look even more closely at their meager savings from wal-mart with appreciation.
    May I suggest a book, Made in America by Sam Walton. Sam Walton -Made in America


    On top of that, they'll constantly bitch about the lower quality of their goods and the horse**** service they receive, while I continue to enjoy being treated like a king at the establishments I frequent.
    Well, that is part of the equation, but I've had no problem with products bought there, often what I'd buy elsewhere for less. With families with kids I can understand it especially. they have kids to cloth and feed and the kids are growing. Clothes in, clothes out.

    The problem isn't that people want better service. IF that was the case, coporations would fail immediately due to their shoddy customer service. Even the good ones aren't **** compared to a small local business.
    Perhaps I've been spending too much time in Europe. Their customer service is non-existent, so when I head back home I'm always appreciative and notice a world of difference.

    What people want is cheaper. The only thing that matters to them is that they "saved" 20 cents on their roll of toilet paper. It'll be great to wipe the blood from their assholes when they get ****ed in the future.
    Tucker... man... I've never seen you like this.

    I don't expect or want the government to step in, however. I would prefer to see peopel stop ****ing themselves through their shortsighted focus on immediate gratification. I think this is one of the biggest problems in American society today. That need for immediate gratification and a comlete and total inability to withold gratification. We have become a shortsighted nation that demands immediate results, no matter how bad it ****s the future up.
    I agree. I wouldn't put it on the businesses though.

    Why is their a credit crisis? Immediate gratification.
    And government feeding it by forcing banks to make loans to people that shouldn't have been given loans.

    Why do we have an incompetant and corruptgovernemnt? Immediate gratification.
    Spineless Republicans having not the sack to fight the media aligned largely against them. That's why Reagan was great. That's why the NJ Gov. seems great. Jan Brewer. Palin. Bachmann.

    McCain had an easy target with Obama, but failed to hit him hard where he should have been hit hard.
    He let the cult grow.

    Why are corporations sending jobs to other countries? Immediate gratification.
    No. To compete. It is difficult to compete with cheap labor when your government has piled on burdens.
    When unions have piled on burdens.
    The immediate gratification came from socking it to businesses by both government and unions. They failed to look beyond their own greedy noses.
    Now they cut it off.

    Just because I can buy a bunch of **** I don't really need cheaply at walmart doesn't mean I should buy a bunch of **** I don't need cheaply at walmart.
    True.

    If we really analyzed how much people save by buying things at walmart, how much of those savings would be on crap they didn't need in teh first place?
    Can't answer that one for ya, but Wal Mart emerged from Bentonville, AR servicing towns of 5,000 or less. They did it by providing for their customers what they wanted, by pressing the distributors, by staying lean and cutting fat.

    It took a couple of years for me to break my wife of the habit of coming home with crap we didn't need and telling me how much she "saved" on it because it was on sale. That's the walmart mentality in a nutshell.
    I see it still pisses you off
    You know, you could make millions revealing the secret of how you accomplished it!
    It's as my girlfriend's pop said when his wife went into the store... ein tag ohne einkaufen ist ein verlorener tag... a day without shopping is a wasted day.

    Too bad you can't understand German; this is legendary in German speaking countries. Loriot.
    Long story short:
    The guy is a purchaser for a company and buys copy paper for 40-years because the price was 50% cheaper in that quantity.
    Is put to pasture...
    At home he goes shopping for the family (never did it before), and on his first trip buys 150 jars of mustard...
    Part 1 Last Work day

    Part 2 Shopping


    What I'm talking about is how I won't be party to it. I'd rather make short-term "sacrifices" for long term gains. It isn't charity. It's having a long-term outlook on life.

    That's part of the reason why I'm working to enter a field that can't be outsourced.
    I hear ya. Cheers.
    Last edited by zimmer; 06-22-10 at 04:55 PM.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

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