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Thread: Obama says GOP making life harder for the jobless

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    Re: Obama says GOP making life harder for the jobless

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    No, you took without context information and created a fantasy. I guess people like OC would fall for it, but that's about it.
    What lack of context? Reagan increased military spending. True. He used the cold war to justify it, and may have even believed it, but that is irrelevant. He jacked up military spending. What effect did this have? Jobs. Obama jacked up spending. What do you think the result might be?

    Congress passed the budget that Reagan submitted to them largely intact. It's true, they did.

    Reagan cut taxes, Obama cut taxes. Both true. So what we see is a pattern of Obama acting in largely the same way Reagan did, and Reagan is the conservative messiah, and Obama is the anti-christ.
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    Re: Obama says GOP making life harder for the jobless

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    All of those who are clamoring for fixes first need to think about why this recession is different.
    OK, I'll bite. Why is this recession different?
    The height of wisdom is to say, "I do not know." -Socrates

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    Re: Obama says GOP making life harder for the jobless

    Quote Originally Posted by Goyboy View Post
    OK, I'll bite. Why is this recession different?
    Let's start with the last major recession. The tech bubble collapse destroyed huge amounts of largely paper wealth in addition to large capital investments by VCs and individuals. That lead to a decline in consumer demand and thus a recession. The underpinnings of lending and leverage were not affected. Firms were capable of getting financing at decent rates without serious problems. Government could stimulate demand and businesses had access to capital to meet that demand.

    This recession is fundamentally different. The underpinnings are financial. When the big investment banks and houses lost huge amounts of money in their securitized assets they also faced the daughting problem of meeting their financial obligations on leverage they used to buy those assets. Basically they had big holes in their balance sheets in the assets and huge liabilities. That basically destroyed their willingess to lend. As many firms are leveraged up to the hilt for every day operations, distruptions to financing are indeed fatal. So how can you use the same principles for a regular recession to a financial recession when the required factor, financing, isn't avaliable for firms to utilize to meet demand? And when companies right now who are operating cannot refinance or even revolve their lines of credit, they cut back leading to more and more unemployment and less and less demand. With less demand from fewer workers, less incentive to start a business and coupled with no financing, we're pretty much up **** creek.

    Financial crisies have caused massive problems. The Asian Financial crisis for one was devastating, which IMO was a forebear for us as the US business environment is more dependent upon lending then the South Korean market was. The Mexican Peso crisis was barely averted by a massive US loan. Russia for years after the Ruble crisis had problems. There really isn't a good way out of this historically. Japan saw a decade of virtual no growth from its financially centered crisis.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Obama says GOP making life harder for the jobless

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    No, you took without context information and created a fantasy. I guess people like OC would fall for it, but that's about it.
    Show us how we are wrong rather then just accusing us to compenstate for your lack of any knowledge.

    How did we remove context. How did we create a fantasy. Are you denying that domestic spending did not materially increase?
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Obama says GOP making life harder for the jobless

    obvious Child, thank you for explaining how financial institutions are contributing to the current recession.
    The height of wisdom is to say, "I do not know." -Socrates

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    Re: Obama says GOP making life harder for the jobless

    Quote Originally Posted by Goyboy View Post
    obvious Child, thank you for explaining how financial institutions are contributing to the current recession.
    No problem. Consider yourself one of the few on this board who do know. There's a fair amount more and it's pretty complex subject overall. I frankly don't know a considerable portion of it especially as it's so entwined it's hard to figure out just what goes where. As I understand how the Asian economies got out of their mess, it was through increased exports boosting their capital reserves and thereby bringing much needed capital into their economies. I don't see that happening here at all. Many still have restrictions on capital flight (or how fast cash can be removed from their economies). In that aspect, our investment in renewable energy technology is all the more important as it could provide a solid way of brining in additional capital from trade. There's no real answer considering our situtation though. And Obama should be given some slack considering that. If this was just a basic decline in demand recession, we'd be well out of it by now.

    On that note, the government actions to stabilize did help, but the consolidation of the financial sector is a ticking time bomb. I think the next financial crisis is going to make this one look like a nice day in the park.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Obama says GOP making life harder for the jobless

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    What lack of context? Reagan increased military spending. True. He used the cold war to justify it, and may have even believed it, but that is irrelevant. He jacked up military spending. What effect did this have? Jobs. Obama jacked up spending. What do you think the result might be?
    10% unemployment. This is where you're inability to admit the failure of your Ideology kicks in. Reagan's spending spurred what?

    A: Private Industry

    B: GSE's (think Freddie and Fannie)

    C: "Shovel Ready Projects"

    D: More Gov't.


    Now, we all know that the Defense Industry was greatly helped by the higher level of spending. This produced a positive upward lift in the economy. But the difference was, this upward movement was in the PRIVATE sector, creating "stuff". (Stuff being a catch all for all the actual physical things created)

    Obama's focus has gone towards more Gov't and "shovel ready projects". Two years, where's the success of this? Oh there is nothing positive going on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post



    Congress passed the budget that Reagan submitted to them largely intact. It's true, they did.

    Reagan cut taxes, Obama cut taxes. Both true. So what we see is a pattern of Obama acting in largely the same way Reagan did, and Reagan is the conservative messiah, and Obama is the anti-christ.
    No, Obama is just doing it WRONG. His focus is Gov't. And you DO NOT UNDERSTAND why that is wrong, which is sad, really. That you think Obama and Reagan are similar in actions shows a serious disconnect with reality.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Obama says GOP making life harder for the jobless

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Let's start with the last major recession. The tech bubble collapse destroyed huge amounts of largely paper wealth in addition to large capital investments by VCs and individuals. That lead to a decline in consumer demand and thus a recession. The underpinnings of lending and leverage were not affected. Firms were capable of getting financing at decent rates without serious problems. Government could stimulate demand and businesses had access to capital to meet that demand.

    This recession is fundamentally different. The underpinnings are financial. When the big investment banks and houses lost huge amounts of money in their securitized assets they also faced the daughting problem of meeting their financial obligations on leverage they used to buy those assets. Basically they had big holes in their balance sheets in the assets and huge liabilities. That basically destroyed their willingess to lend. As many firms are leveraged up to the hilt for every day operations, distruptions to financing are indeed fatal. So how can you use the same principles for a regular recession to a financial recession when the required factor, financing, isn't avaliable for firms to utilize to meet demand? And when companies right now who are operating cannot refinance or even revolve their lines of credit, they cut back leading to more and more unemployment and less and less demand. With less demand from fewer workers, less incentive to start a business and coupled with no financing, we're pretty much up **** creek.

    Financial crisies have caused massive problems. The Asian Financial crisis for one was devastating, which IMO was a forebear for us as the US business environment is more dependent upon lending then the South Korean market was. The Mexican Peso crisis was barely averted by a massive US loan. Russia for years after the Ruble crisis had problems. There really isn't a good way out of this historically. Japan saw a decade of virtual no growth from its financially centered crisis.
    A couple of things. I think Greenspan understood what was allowing the economy o grow. That is why kept interest rates low for so long and allowed leverage at financial institutions to get so high.

    What is interesting is that this administration, not understanding business is doing what may turn out to be all the wrong things. That is why spending $800 billion is not creating jobs. For example how many jobs were lost in residential and commerical building and everything that surrounds it. It does not matter how many roads we tar over, those jobs won't come back until we burn off the excess supply and get back to a more reasonable building run rate.

    Next the new Financial Regulation bill, without saying it is good or bad will have the effect of lowering the capacity of financial institutions to lend. Now that has to hurt not help the recovery. perhaps that is OK as we may need to burn off a bunch of excess debt the country acquired.

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    Re: Obama says GOP making life harder for the jobless

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Dude... that's just silly talk.

    [/sarcasm]
    No that is what is needed you just can't get democrats to do it. I hope the GOP learned their lesson on spending in 2006
    Last edited by ptif219; 06-20-10 at 11:07 PM.

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    Re: Obama says GOP making life harder for the jobless

    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219 View Post
    No that is what is needed you just can't get democrats to do it. I hoppe the GOP learned their lesson on spending in 2006
    Why would you lower spending during a recession?

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