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After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overturn

Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Only ion this thread would be listing countries that allow polygamy be cited as evidence that polygamy provided a stable environment for children. Good job there Tex.

And only you Redress would assume that many countries raise unstable children.

Way to run away from the other points I made as well as using your own argument against you. :)
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

And only you Redress would assume that many countries raise unstable children.

Way to run away from the other points I made as well as using your own argument against you. :)

But only you think documenting one thing somehow proves something else entirely.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Actually, the entire polygamy argument is nothing but an idiotic red herring propelled by anti-GMers who are desperate for anything, especially when everything else they throw has been debunked. I already demonstrated how comparing GM to polygamy is like comparing apples and airplanes. It's just an old, tired argument presented by a loser position.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

That is obviously the situation with the pro-GM posters in this thread. They cherry pick the facts, then ignore the rest with a violent thrust of the head into sand. Like the guy who thinks so much of the Constitution, but ridicules the Bible as "fairy tales." It may interest you to know that many people ... billions of people ... find comfort and enlightenment in the Bible. I'm not one, though I respect its meaning to others.

I've seen nothing from the pro-GM side except, "I want it, I must have it, therefore it's mine." Sorry but life doesn't work that way. Sure there are plenty of good reasons for GM, and plenty of bad ones. I haven't seen anything that rates a redefinition of marriage.

Here's your litmus test. Give gays every benefit of marriage, but call it a "union" and that's just not satisfactory to them. They want ME to call it a marriage, because they know that gay marriage is a sham. Better to have everyone follow along like the Emperor's New Clothes and nobody better dare state the obvious: union between two men is not a marriage.

As usual, you are wrong. It is the anti-GM crowd whose entire argument is nothing but, "I don't like it". Nothing else. The only pertinent evidence that has been presented, has been presented by the pro-GM side. You have failed to prove anything.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Actually, the entire polygamy argument is nothing but an idiotic red herring propelled by anti-GMers who are desperate for anything, especially when everything else they throw has been debunked. I already demonstrated how comparing GM to polygamy is like comparing apples and airplanes. It's just an old, tired argument presented by a loser position.

Well yeah, but you got to admit it is fun making Texmaster argue in favor of polygamy. Don't be messing with my fun.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Well yeah, but you got to admit it is fun making Texmaster argue in favor of polygamy. Don't be messing with my fun.

Thing is, he's not actually arguing in favor of polygamy. He doesn't know the facts about polygamy, hasn't presented any, and hasn't demonstrated any information relevant to the issue in regards to polygamy. I've posted this a couple of time, recently. I'll post it again. It gives an explanation of why the polygamy arguments is invalid:

But, you see, this entire, "if we allow homosexual marriage, polygamy is next" argument is extraordinarily weak, considering that the similarities between the two do not exist. Allow me to explain from both an individual and a societal standpoint. And Jerry. This may be the post you have been waiting for. ;)

First. let us take a look at the difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals. The striking difference is obvious. Homosexuals have a sexual orientation towards those of the same sex, whereas heterosexuals have a sexual orientation towards those of the opposite sex. Why would a heterosexual woman want to marry a man? Sexual orientation. Why would a homosexual man want to marry a man? Sexual orientation. Clearly, from an individual standpoint, this is a, if not the main reason for one wanting to marry a specific other. Love, attraction, emotion. Now, this does not justify gay marriage being validated, and, in fact is a weak argument that I never make. Love, attraction, and emotion does not benefit the state, which is why marriage exists. However, polygamy does not fit well in the criteria that I have identified. There is no polygamous sexual orientation. Polygamy is, typically, a heterosexual orientation, covered already. However, being that there is no polygamous sexual orientation, using this, a mainstay of the individual reason for marriage, will not work or apply. Therefore, polygamy from an individual standpoint, does not meet the same criteria for marriage as do homosexuals or heterosexuals. Lack of orientation.

Now, we move into the societal realm. Government supports marriage for a few reasons. The productive rearing of children is most important. Creating a stable family life is also key: it adds to the positive potential for healthy children, but it also creates healthy adults. There is plenty of evidence to support the theory that those who live in a healthy, stable, committed relationship, are happier, healthier, and are more productive members of society. These are all things that benefit the state. Research shows that, regardless of sexual orientation, gay or straight, folks who live in these kinds of committed relationships, do better, and rear children better, than those who do not. This is regardless of sexual orientation. This is the second piece of the argument that will, eventually win the day for gay marriage. Polygamy does not offer the same benefits. And the answer to "why" is simple, and is psychological in nature. Jealousy, rivalry, and inconsistency. Just like my argument that psychology cannot be separated from economics, hence, because of greed, pure forms of both socialism and libertarianism are destined to be complete failures, neither can human psychology be separated from this issue. What is the number one cause of divorce? Adultery. Why? Jealousy and rivalry. In a multi-partner marriage, it would be impossible for their not to be some sort of hierarchy, and even if this is agreed upon, one cannot eliminate one's emotions. With this type of emotional instability at the familial structure's core, a healthy, committed relationship, similar to that of a single partner marriage, could not be obtained. Further, the inconsistency in caretaking responsibilities and in child rearing responsibilities, compounded by the hierarchies and rivalries will harm the children, affecting their functioning. We already see some of this in divorced families, where inconsistent rules, non-existent co-parenting, and rivalries, negatively affect children.

Lastly, though there is plenty of research that supports both heterosexual and homosexual unions as being beneficial, there is none that supports polygamy.

All of this shows how there is not correlation nor slippery slope from homosexual to polygamous marriage. Polygamy, for the reasons I identified, is not only a very different animal than homosexual marriage, but has none of the similar benefits to the state that the government currently sees marriage as.

Polygamy as a reaction to homosexual marriage is a smokescreen and an invalid comparison.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Thing is, he's not actually arguing in favor of polygamy. He doesn't know the facts about polygamy, hasn't presented any, and hasn't demonstrated any information relevant to the issue in regards to polygamy. I've posted this a couple of time, recently. I'll post it again. It gives an explanation of why the polygamy arguments is invalid:

I should have put it as he has tried. Like most of his arguments, it did not work really well.

I think my favorite to date is his complaining that gay's only adopt about 4 % of children adopted, which is hilarious when you consider that gays make up somewhere between 3 and 10 % of the population, or in other words, 4 % is right about the same rate as straits. You wonder if he ever thinks these things before he posts.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

I've seen nothing from the pro-GM side except, "I want it, I must have it, therefore it's mine."

If that's the only argument you have seen from the pro-GM side, then you are obviously not understanding a thing that has been written in this thread. Just sayin'.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Hmmm... when reading the last few pages, I just realized something. Texmaster has made the claim that because polygamy occurs in many other countries, that this establishes the fact that polygamy must be a successful way to raise children. Now, though we know that texmaster has failed to provide any evidence of this, other than numbers... no research, let's consider that this is actually his position. He believes that polygamy is a successful way to raise children, and he bases this belief on the fact that children are raised in polygamous families in other countries.

Now, I'm SURE that since texmaster is not a hypocrite, he will not also take the position that DADT should be repealed, considering that their are militaries in other countries that allow gays to serve openly. I mean far be it for texmaster to NOT be consistent.

So, what is it tex... are you consistent, and do you agree that DADT should be repealed, or do you NOT agree and are you a hypocrite?

Now, just so everyone is aware, texmaster has refused to respond to me, mostly because I have destroyed every argument he has presented. So, I request that others take up this position and confront him on this. Is he consistent, or is he a hypocrite?
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Children cannot enter into contract on their own. Legal guardian must consent before the age of consent for a contract is reached.

Most States allow minors of a specific age to marry with their parents' written consent. In some States, this age is lower even than the age of consent.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Most States allow minors of a specific age to marry with their parents' written consent. In some States, this age is lower even than the age of consent.

Yes that's exactly what Ikari was saying. The children are below the age of consent for a marriage contract so need their parents' signoff.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

But only you think documenting one thing somehow proves something else entirely.

I understand you aren't interested in the debate anymmore once I proved how easily your own argument can be used for so many other alternative lifestyles so let's agree to disagree on this one.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

I understand you aren't interested in the debate anymmore once I proved how easily your own argument can be used for so many other alternative lifestyles so let's agree to disagree on this one.

You are possibly the only person on here that could believe that posting which countries allow polygamy is the same thing as proving to someone that polygamists raise children well or at least as well as heterosexual couples and that it is that easily comparable to studies conducted to show how homosexual can raise children as well as heterosexual couples can. You have posted no information on how many people in those countries actually practice polygamy. You have posted no information on studies of children raised by those polygamists. You haven't even posted any information about how well children are raised in those countries, whether by heterosexuals, homosexuals, polygamists, single parents, or the country as a whole.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

You are possibly the only person on here that could believe that posting which countries allow polygamy is the same thing as proving to someone that polygamists raise children well or at least as well as heterosexual couples and that it is that easily comparable to studies conducted to show how homosexual can raise children as well as heterosexual couples can. You have posted no information on how many people in those countries actually practice polygamy. You have posted no information on studies of children raised by those polygamists. You haven't even posted any information about how well children are raised in those countries, whether by heterosexuals, homosexuals, polygamists, single parents, or the country as a whole.

It's kinda funny how some people keep using the word "prove" in some form as if they had presented factual information which qualitatively proves that GM is bad or will lead to something worse. Mostly it's just a hodgepodge of ignorance, intolerance, bigotry, and theocracy.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

I'm surprised no one has commented on my post a few pages back, however I do want an answer to this question.

If a politician said "We will not allow gay marriage and you will have to like it!" Does that make him a bigot?
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

I'm surprised no one has commented on my post a few pages back, however I do want an answer to this question.

If a politician said "We will not allow gay marriage and you will have to like it!" Does that make him a bigot?

Maybe or maybe not. It depends on the reasons the politician has for the stance.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

If a politician said "We will not allow gay marriage and you will have to like it!" Does that make him a bigot?

By that quote alone, no it doesn't make him a bigot. However, when he explains his reasons why he said it, yes that could make him one.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Maybe or maybe not. It depends on the reasons the politician has for the stance.

His reason is that he feels no gays should be allowed to marry and no one else has the right to tell him otherwise. In the context he is being loud and forceful with his comment as well.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

I'm surprised no one has commented on my post a few pages back, however I do want an answer to this question.

If a politician said "We will not allow gay marriage and you will have to like it!" Does that make him a bigot?

That alone, you can't really gauge. But very likely it would mean he's rather ignorant on the issue and the rights of the individual.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

His reason is that he feels no gays should be allowed to marry and no one else has the right to tell him otherwise. In the context he is being loud and forceful with his comment as well.

He feels that gays should not marry as an arbitrary feeling or is there further reasoning behind that?

If he just feels it because thats how he feels, I wouldn't say it is bigoted but highly illogical.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

He feels that gays should not marry as an arbitrary feeling or is there further reasoning behind that?

If he just feels it because thats how he feels, I wouldn't say it is bigoted but highly illogical.

His main view is that gay marriage will not be allowed to happen. He is willing to (as a politician) disobey the law if gay marriage is legalized and not recognize them through some form of civil disobedience. The man wants to impose his views and morals upon everyone. Essentially "my view is that gays can't marry, and they won't marry and you will just have to like it!" Is this bigoted?
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

That's a bit fascist. The action itself is rather bigoted as it can be defined as "a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.". And it seems that could be applicable here.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

His main view is that gay marriage will not be allowed to happen. He is willing to (as a politician) disobey the law if gay marriage is legalized and not recognize them through some form of civil disobedience. The man wants to impose his views and morals upon everyone. Essentially "my view is that gays can't marry, and they won't marry and you will just have to like it!" Is this bigoted?

Fundamental Difference:

You want to deny someone something... whether they like it or not.
They want you to allow something... whether you accept it or not.

No Actual Harm Done To You!
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

Fundamental Difference:

You want to deny someone something... whether they like it or not.
They want you to allow something... whether you accept it or not.

No Actual Harm Done To You!

No actual harm done to anyone either if gay marriage isn't allowed. No gays are harmed and no one is splitting them up, their relationship just doesn't fit the definition of marriage.
Again, is the guy a bigot with his views? Essentially willing to disobey the law to force his views upon everyone and intolerantly proclaiming that gay marriage will never be allowed, and everyone will just have to like it.
 
Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

That is obviously the situation with the pro-GM posters in this thread. They cherry pick the facts, then ignore the rest with a violent thrust of the head into sand. Like the guy who thinks so much of the Constitution, but ridicules the Bible as "fairy tales." It may interest you to know that many people ... billions of people ... find comfort and enlightenment in the Bible. I'm not one, though I respect its meaning to others.

I've seen nothing from the pro-GM side except, "I want it, I must have it, therefore it's mine." Sorry but life doesn't work that way. Sure there are plenty of good reasons for GM, and plenty of bad ones. I haven't seen anything that rates a redefinition of marriage.

Here's your litmus test. Give gays every benefit of marriage, but call it a "union" and that's just not satisfactory to them. They want ME to call it a marriage, because they know that gay marriage is a sham. Better to have everyone follow along like the Emperor's New Clothes and nobody better dare state the obvious: union between two men is not a marriage.

As a Catholic I have no problem with the Bible. What I have a problem with is people thinking they can enforce their beliefs on others. That and that many don't know the Bible as well as they pretend. But I won't debate that here. Here all that is important is that you are free in this country to keep your beliefs. You don't believe in same sex marriage, don't marry someone of the same sex. You believe in honoring your marriage the way you think it shoujld be, honor it that way. You don't want to go to a same marriage, don't go. But remeber in a free country, others may do it differently.
 
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