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Thread: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overturn

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    They're not red herrings when the arguments being used to justify same sex marriage would also justify incestuous and polygamous marriages-- you can't argue that the State cannot prohibit consenting adults from marrying whomever they choose and then argue that the State can continue to prohibit certain couples from doing so. If you concede that the State has a legitimate interest in regulating marriage, you concede that it has the authority to prohibit same sex marriages as well, whether or not you believe that they should do so. In order to argue that the State should allow same sex marriages without allowing any marriage, you have to show some reason that same sex marriages benefit society in a way that incestuous and/or polygamous marriages do not.
    Yes, there is a difference that makes GM different from the red herrings. The argument for gay marriage is that it is not harmfull(and as such the government should not disallow it), and that it is beneficial to society in providing stability both for the couple, but also for any children of that couple. I looked the numbers up recently for another thread, and roughly 1/3 of lesbian couples have a child living with them for a portion of the time, and 1/4 of gay male couples, and this number is rising.

    Incestuous relationships can probably be argued as harmful(I am not particularly knowledgeable on the subject, so it's a guess), and I believe that polygamist relationships are not believed to be stable environments for raising children.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    They're not red herrings when the arguments being used to justify same sex marriage would also justify incestuous and polygamous marriages-- you can't argue that the State cannot prohibit consenting adults from marrying whomever they choose and then argue that the State can continue to prohibit certain couples from doing so. If you concede that the State has a legitimate interest in regulating marriage, you concede that it has the authority to prohibit same sex marriages as well, whether or not you believe that they should do so. In order to argue that the State should allow same sex marriages without allowing any marriage, you have to show some reason that same sex marriages benefit society in a way that incestuous and/or polygamous marriages do not.
    The "same-sex marriage would lead to polygamy" argument is a false analogy and here is the proof...

    When you apply for a marriage license you must answer two questions:

    1) Are you the legal age to consent to marriage?

    2) Have you been married before - if so please provide proof the previous marriage was dissolved or annulled.

    Polygamists can not provide proof their previous marriage was dissolved/annulled (because it hasn't) and would therefore not qualify for a marriage license. Polygamists also typically marry underage girls, so their prospective "spouses" would not qualify.

    Incest is illegal--you'd have to overturn those laws first.

    Bill O'Reilly's notion that same-sex marriage would allow a man to marry a duck is also a false analogy because a duck can not consent.

    Marriage is not a contract, and my response to Redress above indicates why it should not be considered as one. Marriage is a social institution that involves more than just the two spouses.
    As far as the state is concerned, marriage is a license you have to apply for. Couples need this license to have a ceremony and then qualify for certain legal rights and privileges. Gay couples would like to apply for this license and then get these privileges.
    Last edited by hazlnut; 06-18-10 at 06:12 PM.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    The way I see it, we have the right to do anything and everything that we want, until the government can show a compelling reason why they shouldn't allow me.

    "What the hell, why can't I shoot people in the face?"

    "Well, Deuce, doing so would cause them to die. If they die, they are unable to exercise any of their rights to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness."

    "Ahh. Ok. Fair enough, government. So, why can't I marry a dude?"

    "You don't have the right to marry a dude."

    "That's not an answer."

    "If we let you do that, we'd have to let people marry animals or their siblings or children or nine people at the same time!"

    "...the ****? Says who? Did you just make a slippery slope argument against civil rights?"

    "Marrying a dude is not a civil right for you"

    "You're going in circles!"

    "Ok. Uhh, the children. It's for the children."

    "What children? I don't have any children. Besides, studies show that two men or two women provide just as stable a home as a man and a woman."

    "GOD SAYS SO OK. ITS GROSS. THE PEOPLE DON'T WANT IT."

    "...**** you, government."

    edit:
    "But Deuce, you're not even gay, why do you care? Why would you want the right to marry a dude?"

    "The same reason I don't own a gun but want the right to own a gun: It's none of your damned business!"
    Last edited by Deuce; 06-18-10 at 06:50 PM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    WE almost have the full set now. We have incest and pedophilia, now we just need bestiality and polygamy and we have the full set of gay marriage red herrings.
    That certainly is a lot easier to say than confronting the massive hypocrcy towards only allowing gay marriage and excluding everything else you don't agree with.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

    John Adams

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    That certainly is a lot easier to say than confronting the massive hypocrcy towards only allowing gay marriage and excluding everything else you don't agree with.
    Why is it hypocrisy to support one thing, and not support different things?
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    That certainly is a lot easier to say than confronting the massive hypocrcy towards only allowing gay marriage and excluding everything else you don't agree with.
    Well for one, isn't that exactly what the anti-gay marriage crowd is doing? Allowing straight marriage but excluding everything else they don't agree with?

    In my opinion, it's not hypocritical. Animals and children can't enter legal contracts. Incest has a demonstrable harm in the form of genetic issues. Polygamy is not inherently harmful, despite its historical practices, but the way marriage works at the moment divorce would be vastly complicated in a multi-person marriage. If one person in a three-person union splits, who keeps the house? Who has custody of the children if the biological parents wont be together? Complicated, however, is not necessarily harmful. If you can work out the law to make sense on that subject I don't see any good reason to ban polygamy.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Did you know that only 7% of the people in the world are left handed? Does that mean they choose to be?
    Gene already found. Enjoy

    Gene for Left-Handed Trait Discovered

    We don't allow people who aren't adults to enter into legal contracts.
    Bull****. Of course we do. Kids work in stores, kids sign movie contracts, talent shows, etc.

    I have no issue with that personally, but it's beside the point. It actually *can* be demonstrated that children of siblings have a higher risk of genetic abnormalities. Can you demonstrate anything negative at all related to me signing a legal contract with another woman?
    By that argument its well known that homosexual men spread aids easier so that would fit your criteria but creating law based on a personal claim of no negative consequence isn't sufficient for a justification for changing law.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

    John Adams

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Gene already found. Enjoy

    Gene for Left-Handed Trait Discovered
    Homosexuality may have a genetic link as well as being affected by social/environmental factors. Just because we haven't nailed it down doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    Bull****. Of course we do. Kids work in stores, kids sign movie contracts, talent shows, etc.
    And they do these things with a signoff from their parents. They cannot enter such a contract on their own. Except talent shows... what the hell kind of talent show did you go to where a legal contract was signed?

    By that argument its well known that homosexual men spread aids easier so that would fit your criteria but creating law based on a personal claim of no negative consequence isn't sufficient for a justification for changing law.
    Are you suggesting that marriage increases the transmission of STDs? If anything, marriage promotes monogamy which decreases transmission of STDs. Try again.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    My motivations and feelings on the matter have nothing to do with the topic at hand.
    LOL Riiight. And I'm a Chinese Jet Pilot.

    Further, this is not a response to anything relevant in this thread as this thread is about legal issues and you are blathering on about biology.
    Thsi is about legal justification for allowing gay marriage. I am addressing the false claim that the legal justification lies in the genetic argument. Try to keep up.

    I never made any claim in this thread concerning biology or genetics. Perhaps you would like to go back and actually ****ing read it before you start spewing your nonsense and showing everyone how deranged you become when this topic is approached?
    Nice dodge. Then explain your legal reasoning for allowing gay marriage. You can't compare it to race since that is genetic so what else you got?

    Well thank you, Captain Obvious.
    You'd be surprised how many of your fellow gay marriage zealots deny this fact.

    It isn't designed for anything. I mean, at least not until you speak to the Designer and ask him or her. Good luck with all that.
    LOL First you claim everyone knows that heteroseuxality is the only way for natural procreation then you turn around and claim the biological sexual reaction that prepares for procreation isn't? What are you smoking? Don't hog it for yourself, that must be good stuff.

    Except when it's gay people or masturbation or recreational sex or sex with sperm barriers...
    You're confused again. I understand. The point is it isn't different for either but only one has a biologicial natural function. Procreation which is only through heterosexuality.

    Again, what's ridiculous here is your assertion that I have claimed a genetic link, whatever that nebulous terminology means. Do you ever bother to read what's posted before you start sputtering and spitting your nonsense?
    I suggest you actually read the threads in here and the claims in this very thread because that claim is everywhere.

    You're correct. No one is claiming blow jobs are genetic.
    Well thank you Captain Obvious

    I'm glad that incites more maniacal and demented laughter from you...or whatever it is you are trying to communicate. I don't think you even know what you're trying to say.
    I know its hard for you but please try and keep up. The same argument for gay marriage is being made that because someone gets their jollies off by finding a different hole that doesn't mean its genetic. I'm simply pointing to anyother method thats used for sexual gratification but no one is claiming its genetic either because that critieria doesn't justify the label.

    When you stop having the same biological sexual reaction that gay people have, can we discuss whatever moronic claims I want to attribute to you whether you actually made them or not?
    Because the reaciton has a purpose, procreation, a purely heteroseuxal trait. Read slower.

    No.
    Yes
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

    John Adams

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Homosexuality may have a genetic link as well as being affected by social/environmental factors. Just because we haven't nailed it down doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
    Then be happy with civil unions which I support fully.

    And they do these things with a signoff from their parents. They cannot enter such a contract on their own. Except talent shows... what the hell kind of talent show did you go to where a legal contract was signed?
    Not true. I needed no parental concent for my jobs when I was under 18.

    Are you suggesting that marriage increases the transmission of STDs? If anything, marriage promotes monogamy which decreases transmission of STDs. Try again.
    You were the one claiming health was an issue. I gave you an example to fit that reqirement. I also said to you: creating law based on a personal claim of no negative consequence isn't sufficient for a justification for changing law.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

    John Adams

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