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Thread: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overturn

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I argue the traditional authority angle, stating that "marriage" is about what it has always been about.
    No, because if you were, you would be arguing marriage is about property. That has been what marriage has been about through "tradition".

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Uh, no, try again. My argument is not 'legal rational' in that I'm arguing from the law. I argue the traditional authority angle, stating that "marriage" is about what it has always been about.

    Now quick, accuse me of being against gay marriage even though that's not true either. Quick quick I'm getting away
    As was stated by others, marriage has been about property rights over mainly women, not children. Although it is well known that many cultures allowed a man to divorce his wife if she couldn't provide him with progeny, marriages were not automatically dissolved just because a couple did not have children. In fact, many men would stay married to a wife who couldn't provide him with children but would take on a mistress, or more, instead who might provide him with bastard children. Can you name a current culture where the couple is forced to have their marriage dissolved, against their will, because they aren't raising children? Do you know of some from the past? How many?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    As was stated by others, marriage has been about property rights over mainly women, not children. Although it is well known that many cultures allowed a man to divorce his wife if she couldn't provide him with progeny, marriages were not automatically dissolved just because a couple did not have children. In fact, many men would stay married to a wife who couldn't provide him with children but would take on a mistress, or more, instead who might provide him with bastard children. Can you name a current culture where the couple is forced to have their marriage dissolved, against their will, because they aren't raising children? Do you know of some from the past? How many?
    So just to be clear, you're saying that sociology is crap, esentialy.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You don't consider Sociology to be a science? Wow.

    News for ya, but the lil piece of Sociology called "cultural universal": I didn't make that one up.
    Okay well convince me on it.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Okay well convince me on it.
    You can read about it the same place I did:

    Amazon.com: Sociology Now Value Package (includes MySocLab CourseCompass with…

    The 100 level class I attended as part of my degree program was conducted by a BHSU professor who instructs at the 400 level and operates a practice. Please excuse me if I take his word over yours.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Yes I'm being obtuse because you could just wiki it at least but if you won't put in even the slightest bit of effort then neither will I.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You can read about it the same place I did:

    Amazon.com: Sociology Now Value Package (includes MySocLab CourseCompass with…

    The 100 level class I attended as part of my degree program was conducted by a BHSU professor who instructs at the 400 level and operates a practice. Please excuse me if I take his word over yours.

    You send me to a link that costs a 131 bucks? Hmmm lets get back to property rights mmmm kay

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    So just to be clear, you're saying that sociology is crap, esentialy.
    Can your point be absolutely proven by sociology? From what I know of history, it can't be proven that most civilizations considered a marriage invalid, against the couple's wishes, when the couple were not raising a child or after a couple had raised their children. Again can you name some, especially some that influenced our own society and/or some current ones?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    You send me to a link that costs a 131 bucks? Hmmm lets get back to property rights mmmm kay
    Hey I not only had to pay the $130, but I also had to go through the class. You're getting off easy. If I still had the book I could post pics of the pages, but I don't.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Can your point be absolutely proven by sociology? From what I know of history, it can't be proven that most civilizations considered a marriage invalid, against the couple's wishes, when the couple were not raising a child or after a couple had raised their children. Again can you name some, especially some that influenced our own society and/or some current ones?
    It was a 100 level intro coarse, I don't think it went into as much detail as you're looking for. I think you're looking for 300-400 level material. This text book simply states the existence of "cultural universal" to be true, gives a few specific examples of marriage and other universals in other cultures and times, and references source material in the back.

    I think you're looking for an exhaustive review of the source material itself. Such a rich and in-depth review was not within the scope of that course.

    As I said before, marriage takes many forms but is always about the same thing. Gay marriage is perfectly acceptable as yet another variant on the theme, but that means it has to be of the same theme.

    Even in Greek and Feudal Japan when gay relationships were the accepted norm, "marriage" was about the socializing of children. Even where the legalities of marriage treated women as property, marriage was about the socializing of children (even though today we disagree with many of the things those children were raised to believe to be acceptable). The whole purpose in controlling marriage was to direct who the children would grow up to be.
    Last edited by Jerry; 07-07-10 at 02:09 AM.

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