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Thread: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overturn

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    And no where does it say homosexuals have a right to marriage. It's a social issue, therefore society gets to speak and vote on it as the Constitution would suggest.
    For the government it is a legal issue.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I am not denying rights to others, because it's my belief that they don't have that right. I define marriage, and believe that homosexual unions can apply for civil unions if they want to. There is nothing that says homosexuals have the right to force upon everyone else that their relationship and union is marriage.

    They didn't restrict anything, they simply didn't extend the definition of marriage to include homosexual unions. And those who had marriage licenses did not obtain them legally, therefore they should have them removed because their "marriage" does not fit the proper definition of the state. I won't deny that there are arrogant hateful anti-gm people, but not all of us are that way. I have several times exposed and expressed my anger at hypocrisy at the Christian right on this forum. However, there is also selfish, arrogant, and hateful people on the pro-gm side who are bigoted towards socially conservative Christians. The mayor of San Fransisco is a prime example of one when he exclaimed "You will have gay marriage weather you like it or not!" There is much hatred towards Christians from the pro-gm side, neither side is spotless.
    First, you are denying them rights over a word. A word that you do not own the definition of, especially not legally. Legally, marriage is a contract. There is no other way to say this. It is a contract that comes with benefits and responsibilities for the two parties allowed to enter into the contract. If you don't want the contract to be called marriage, fine. Petition for all civil marriages to be known legally as civil unions. But all civil marriage contracts need to be known as civil unions, not just those that you or your religion views as not really marriages. You lose the legal recognition of the word marriage too. Religion is free to use it all they want to, as is anyone who wants to call themselves "married".

    Second, there are haters on both side, but only the anti-gm side is completely trying to deny rights to a group of people. Some pro-gm people may be advocating for off-the-wall extras, like trying to require anyone who performs a legal wedding ceremony to have to perform gay weddings as well or for requiring unnecessary anti-discrimination laws against private citizens/businesses. Most pro-gm people, including pretty much all of the ones on this site, are advocating for fair and equal marriage rights/benefits/responsibilities. Saying that it is coming, whether you like it or not, while not exactly appropriate in a public statement and certainly should have been said a better way, is still true. The current trends show that more and more people are accepting homosexuality and even willing to allow homosexuals to enter into the legal contract of marriage. And there are several lawsuits in courts right now across the country and in DC, that are challenging DOMA. And, there has been talk several times of bills in Congress that would offer federal recognition of same-sex marriage. Once DOMA is gone, same sex marriage will essentially be legal everywhere in the US, even if some states refuse to give a marriage license to same-sex couples.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    And no where does it say homosexuals have a right to marriage. It's a social issue, therefore society gets to speak and vote on it as the Constitution would suggest.


    Has Prop 8 been ruled unconstitutional? Vermont and Hawaii... I would expect nothing less from those states, of course they would substitute what is lawful for their liberal moral system. It was challenged here in TN too and many other states, and they found it to be constitutional in court.

    The courts will have their final say, and those who declare its unconstitutional largely do it to force their morality upon others. I saw no problem before the California elections with any group saying it was unconstitutional to have on the ballot. You deal with things like that before the election, not afterwards when you don't get your way. They lost in the popular election, so now they are turning to plan B, legislating from the bench. Where was the homosexual rights outcry when they thought about putting Prop 8 on the ballot? Everyone thought it would pass in liberal California so there was no objection.

    I find your description of religious individuals and anti-gay marriage supporters to be bigoted and offensive. All I am asking for is a rational debate free from insults and offensive language. I have great respect for you as an individual and poster, and I feel debates should be rational and insult free. Forgive me if I am whining or act "butthurt," I just want a logical and rational debate. There is another place for users to flame as they please, and it isn't here.

    Christianity isn't a "dying cult." Western nations are becoming increasingly secular, but many other parts of the world are seeing a boom in Christianity (like in Africa).

    Homosexuals don't have the right to exalt their relationship as equal to marriage when the populace has voted and decided that it isn't marriage. I believe they have a right to legal status. but not to call their relationship/union marriage, because it isn't marriage.


    No, I'm merely exposing the hypocrisy. The ones interjecting bigotry are those who want to blanket every anti-gm supporter as a bigot and close their eyes to their own bigotry through forcing their definition of marriage on others.[/QUOTE]

    Your dishonesty is astounding. I don't understand how you can sit there and cry and moan that anything is being forced on you with a straight face. But leave it to the Christian to cry persecution rather than make a legitimate argument.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post

    Your dishonesty is astounding. I don't understand how you can sit there and cry and moan that anything is being forced on you with a straight face. But leave it to the Christian to cry persecution rather than make a legitimate argument.
    I'm done here.
    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates
    Tired of elections being between the lesser of two evils.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I'm done here.
    You should be.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    Jerry and I have had this discussion and I'm okay with his views. He simply states that no benefits should be extended to any couples until they have children and the tax benefits should only be extended to couples upon having children.

    And if I'm right, this includes same-sex couples, correct, Jerry?

    I see no bigotry in his MO. Now, my only concern with this is up until that point to vote against gay marriage is a little discriminatory, in my book - because you're settling for inequality under the status quo before your equalizing solution occurs.

    But your philosophy isn't bigoted at all.
    Absolutely this includes same-sex couples. The state's interest in marriage is the raising of children, not promoting or demoting sexual preference.

    IMO there is no meaningful difference between a same-sex couple raising children and an opposite-sex couple raising children. Neither is there any meaningful difference between a gay couple who have decided never to have children and any childless hetero romantic relationship one can dream up. One matters to everyone, the other is your own private business which affects only those directly involved.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Actually, Jerry, you are consistent in your view and your view does not use race,ethnicity or sexual orientation to determine who you feel is entitled to the privilege to marry. While I disagree with your belief that marriage should only be extended to child-rearing couples, your argument at least has some basis in rationality unlike those who believe that marriage should be restrict to heterosexuals or Christian couples.
    If we were to pass a Constitutional amendment defining marriage and it's purpose, I would be willing to turn a blind eye to all those childless gay couples who wish to marry. They are at worst benign exceptions and pose no harm. My purpose is to focus the body politic on accomplishing something everyone benefits from, and I'm willing to give ground in compromise to accomplish that goal.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I know one thing: none of that has happened with homosexuals but it already has happened with heterosexuals.

    I'm not making any arguments based on what we don't know. I am making arguments based on what we do know for sure.
    Do we even know Briteney Spear's political outlook?

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Do we even know Briteney Spear's political outlook?
    Does it really matter? I didn't make any comment about conservative vs liberal here. I simply commented on how heterosexuals have defended the sanctity of marriage in the past and held that incident up as an example of how their concern is misplaced on homosexuals when the egregious offenders have, thus far, been heteros.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Absolutely this includes same-sex couples. The state's interest in marriage is the raising of children, not promoting or demoting sexual preference.

    IMO there is no meaningful difference between a same-sex couple raising children and an opposite-sex couple raising children. Neither is there any meaningful difference between a gay couple who have decided never to have children and any childless hetero romantic relationship one can dream up. One matters to everyone, the other is your own private business which affects only those directly involved.
    Do you think home owners who don't have kids should pay property taxes for the schools?
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
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