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Thread: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overturn

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    All I have to say, roguenuke, is that you have high hopes if you think that your measured and reasoned response is going to get anything more than the same obtuse blather with no attempt at actually arguing against the points you made.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    All I have to say, roguenuke, is that you have high hopes if you think that your measured and reasoned response is going to get anything more than the same obtuse blather with no attempt at actually arguing against the points you made.
    LOL I know, but my mother always told me that I was stubbornly optimistic and could be way too positive for my own good. I just can't help it. I hate unfairness.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    LOL I know, but my mother always told me that I was stubbornly optimistic and could be way too positive for my own good. I just can't help it. I hate unfairness.
    I was speaking more about that one in particular. There are others to have great discussions about this with; he's just not one of them.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Even if gay marriage doesn't affect me directly, it does affect me indirectly and it goes against what I believe.
    Man! Living in a democracy sure is tough! People do things you don't agree with and you have to put up with it! Oh, if only America stood for the ideals that only one group got to decide everything -- why then the world would be perfect!

    Hey, Digsbe: Did it ever occur to you that there are many things that people do that go against what I believe, too? I happen to be a vegetarian, but I'm not about to demand laws forcing everyone else to be one too (and my reasons for being a vegetarian are based in science and ethics, not religious books written thousands of years before any of us were born). You, on the other hand, see no problem with forcing your views on everyone else.

    Oh, silly me -- here I go, debating after saying it was useless.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Even if gay marriage doesn't affect me directly, it does affect me indirectly and it goes against what I believe.
    have you considered that what you believe is wrong?


    It gay marriage is considered marriage then that means the state I live in recognizes a homosexual union as equal and as morally right as a heterosexual marriage.
    They are equal in reality. And should be equal by law.


    I have a right to stand up and vote for what I believe. Does this mean all middle class/poor people have no right to vote on candidates who want to raise taxes for the rich? After all, raising taxes on the rich doesn't affect them.
    False analogy.

    No one has replied to my point that overturning Prop 8 is a bigoted imposition of morals upon social conservatives.
    Because it's not.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    There are my first two posts in this thread, both from the first page, and I think they make clear that I am not arguing gay marriage based on genetics. My first mention of genetics/evolution is on page 5, and in response to some one else who failed to understand how evolution and genetics work. Correcting other people's mistakes is not the same as pushing the argument myself.
    Before I waste my time, are you going to deny you haven't made genetic arguments in past threads? Don't make me dig them up.

    Gay Marriage should be legal for a number of reason. First and most importantly, gay couples are increasingly involved in raising children, with large numbers of them being primary caregivers for children. It is easier and easier for gay couples to have children through a variety of methods. For the benefit of society and those children, providing stable living arrangements is a positive.
    Large numbers? Do you have any evidence of that?

    I would love to see how many homosexual couples for example actually have adopted and I'm sure the number doesn't even come to 5% of all adoptions so to claim the numbers are "large" is false. You can claim its because many states don't allow homosexuals to adopt but that doesn't change the numbers.

    I can make the same argument for polygamists or any other group of people. There is nothing unique about that argument specifically for homosexuals.

    Married people are more likely to own homes, are more stable in terms of jobs, and overall contribute more to their community than unmarried people.
    Again, I can make the same argument for any alternate lifestyle. By your arguments you could deny no couple or group of people from being married so the consequences go well beyond your target group of people.

    There is no logical reason to deny marriage to gay people.
    Thats a personal opinion not an argument.

    There is no logical reason to give gay people the same benefits, but call it something else.
    Sigh. Again, personal opinion not an argument.

    Those are my arguments for gay marriage, and you have not argued against them. You have built your straw man and thought it meant something.
    Spare me the "straw man". Once you start trying to catagorize your oppoent's argument that way you've already lost. Its a painfully overused and inaccurate statement. Stick to the subject and the argument being made.

    My argument to your claims is you have yet to establish the need for homosexuality to be equal to traditional marriage therefore civil unions best fit your description. And furthermore, using your arguments you could not deny any other alternative lifestyle the same privilege of marriage. Any alternative lifestyle can claim they can care for children then draw in the facts we know about traditional marriage and bastardize them for their own group as you have. That is what you keep failing to understand. You can't let in just 2 party homosexual marriage without simply drawing the same line you vilify those who are against gay marriage in a different place.

    We have chosen a family unit that has served us very well for thousands of years and you are going to need more than your own personal desire for gay marriage to justify equal footing while at the same time producing an argument that cannot be used by any other alternative lifestyle to achieve the same goal.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    If it wasn't for having and raising children, would marriage have ever been created in the first place?

    I doubt it.
    Last edited by Erod; 06-21-10 at 06:14 PM.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    If it wasn't for having and raising children, would marriage have ever been created in the first place?

    I doubt it.
    Probably, although without kids, we really wouldn't have went very far as a species. Getting to that second generation without kids is pretty much impossible.

    However, marriage has other purposes than just to make children. Marriage was often used, especially in the past before women were considered anything more than property, as a way to legally join families and even to make political alliances between countries. And besides, people really don't need marriage to procreate. Just like marriages don't need children to be valid.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Before I waste my time, are you going to deny you haven't made genetic arguments in past threads? Don't make me dig them up.
    Genetics is not a primary argument. There is evidence, but not proof, that homosexuality may be genetic. All this is unimportant though, since my argument against gay marriage is not based on genetics.

    Large numbers? Do you have any evidence of that?
    http://www.law.ucla.edu/Williamsinst...s/USReport.pdf

    "More than 39% of same-sex couples in the United States aged 22-55 are raising children; they are raising more than 250,000 children under age 18."--This is taken from the 2000 census data.

    About.com: http://www.enotalone.com/article/9874.html

    "In 1976, there were an estimated 300,000 to 500,000 gay and lesbian biological parents; as of 1990, an estimated 6 to 14 million children have a gay or lesbian parent. And, between 8 and 10 million children are being raised in gay and lesbian households."--different methodology. The 2000 census numbers are suspected low in terms of representation of gays.

    I would love to see how many homosexual couples for example actually have adopted and I'm sure the number doesn't even come to 5% of all adoptions so to claim the numbers are "large" is false. You can claim its because many states don't allow homosexuals to adopt but that doesn't change the numbers.
    I have linked this source to you before: http://www.law.ucla.edu/williamsinst...tionReport.pdf

    More than one in three lesbians have given birth and one in six gay men have fathered or adopted a child.
    More than half of gay men and 41 percent of lesbians want to have a child.
    An estimated two million GLB people are interested in adopting.
    An estimated 65,500 adopted children are living with a lesbian or gay parent.
    More than 16,000 adopted children are living with lesbian and gay parents in California, the highest number among the states.
    Gay and lesbian parents are raising four percent of all adopted children in the United States.
    Same-sex couples raising adopted children are older, more educated, and have more economic resources than other adoptive parents.
    Adopted children with same-sex parents are younger and more likely to be foreign born.
    An estimated 14,100 foster children are living with lesbian or gay parents.
    Gay and lesbian parents are raising three percent of foster children in the United States.
    I can make the same argument for polygamists or any other group of people. There is nothing unique about that argument specifically for homosexuals.
    Feel free to provide data to back up that claim.

    Again, I can make the same argument for any alternate lifestyle. By your arguments you could deny no couple or group of people from being married so the consequences go well beyond your target group of people.
    I don't have any data to prove or disprove your claim. Neither do you.

    Thats a personal opinion not an argument.
    Then make a logical argument against gay marriage.

    Sigh. Again, personal opinion not an argument.
    Make a logical argument for giving gays civil unions identical to marriage but calling it something else.

    Spare me the "straw man". Once you start trying to catagorize your oppoent's argument that way you've already lost. Its a painfully overused and inaccurate statement. Stick to the subject and the argument being made.
    And yet that is exactly what you have been trying to do. You want me to argue based on genetics, so you keep saying that is the argument, when it is not. You are telling us what we are arguing, when we are not arguing that at all. You have yet to offer a single actual counter to any of my arguments here.

    My argument to your claims is you have yet to establish the need for homosexuality to be equal to traditional marriage therefore civil unions best fit your description. And furthermore, using your arguments you could not deny any other alternative lifestyle the same privilege of marriage. Any alternative lifestyle can claim they can care for children then draw in the facts we know about traditional marriage and bastardize them for their own group as you have. That is what you keep failing to understand. You can't let in just 2 party homosexual marriage without simply drawing the same line you vilify those who are against gay marriage in a different place.

    We have chosen a family unit that has served us very well for thousands of years and you are going to need more than your own personal desire for gay marriage to justify equal footing while at the same time producing an argument that cannot be used by any other alternative lifestyle to achieve the same goal.
    I have in fact provided those arguments. Gays are raising children. Marriage is a part of a good, stable home for children. Therefore, gays should be allowed to marry.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    If it wasn't for having and raising children, would marriage have ever been created in the first place?

    I doubt it.
    And if it wasn't for our fear of death and the creative/imaginative parts of our brain, I guess they wouldn't have invented God and religions either...

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