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Thread: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overturn

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Here's the thing, folks. The GM debate always boils down to morality vs. logic. This far, I have never seen a logical debate presented by someone who is anti-GM, that didn't eventually come down to morality, or "I don't want it" with no other explanation. Now, I am not mocking morality, but I do not believe that policy should be based on it, when logic completely defies what it dictates. The American people have the right to vote anyway they choose, whether it be on logic, morality, or because they "feel like it"... even if they are wrong, based on evidence, logic, or whatever. I have involved myself in the GM debate for many years and I do not hold illusions that I will change anti's minds, but I do hope I can at least educate them on how their positions are not logical and what they are actually based on. They can believe what they want; I just want them to see WHY.
    The fact that homosexuality is fairly common does not mean that it is normal in the sense of normal psychosexuality. Whether homosexuality is more harmful than, let's say, left-handedness is another debate.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenA59 View Post
    The fact that homosexuality is fairly common does not mean that it is normal in the sense of normal psychosexuality. Whether homosexuality is more harmful than, let's say, left-handedness is another debate.
    Since normal is a completely arbitrary term, one based solely on relative opinion, nothing you say above is pertinent.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
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    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenA59 View Post
    Sexual self-identification has nothing to do with race. Gays already have the right to vote.
    You completely missed his point and his analogy. Try again.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  4. #234
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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenA59 View Post
    Sexual self-identification has nothing to do with race. Gays already have the right to vote.
    That still isn't a reason.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenA59 View Post
    He already said there is a basis in religion. Do you need to be quoted chapter and verse? That's not necessary since the Bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin like many other sins. IMO gay marriage is a redefinition of marriage that harms the institution. And don't keep asking why. It's been explained repeatedly.
    So is that what should be argued in court? "The Bible clearly says that homosexuality is a sin, your honor." That wouldn't go over very well.

    Now, a better argument might be, "Your honor, many of the voters in this state view homosexuality as a sin and same sex marriage as a redefinition of marriage. This is why they voted for this Proposition." Then it is a matter of do voters have the right to deny equal treatment to a group, without actual proof that the group having that equal treatment will do harm to the existing institution but in fact with proof that actually allowing equal treatment to the group will most likely improve the lives of many of the group members and their families.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Actually, the genetic argument is not even one of the top 3 arguments used. Build that straw man up though, since you cannot actually argue against the real points used(eg GM is good for families, promotes social stability and so on). When you get around to arguing the points people are actually making, then we will be somewhere.
    Thats an amusing take considering you were one of the ones arguing genetics so heavily.

    Name these arguments of yours. We are talking about changing law.

    Name the logical and legitimate arguments that justify acceptance of homosexual marriage.

    BTW, if you go back to "civil rights" as an argument you are back to the genetic argument.
    Last edited by texmaster; 06-21-10 at 11:24 AM.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    And?

    Is there a gene that makes you attracted specifically to your wife?

    No?

    Then you shouldn't be allowed to marry her.

    See how stupid the genetic thing is?
    Then don't use it to justify gay marriage as so many of your colleagues have done.

    But we don't allow them marry until they are of age of consent. We don't allow them to do MANY things until they are certain ages. Not my rules dear, and you want to start a thread regarding dropping the legal age of consent, feel free. You'll see me backing that too.
    You are only making my point for me. We have made moral decisions about age of consent.

    Actually, it was your argument.
    Completely false and I challenge you to provide the quote where I ever used that argument before exposing the ridiculousness of it as I have here.

    Let's see it.

    I have no issue at all with allowing siblings to sign a marriage contact together.
    Yet you would deny children. How is that any different than another moral stance just like those who are against gay marriage have done?
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenA59 View Post
    He already said there is a basis in religion. Do you need to be quoted chapter and verse? That's not necessary since the Bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin like many other sins. IMO gay marriage is a redefinition of marriage that harms the institution. And don't keep asking why. It's been explained repeatedly.
    NO, I need him to answer the question. Having in based in religion doesn't tell me HOW it effects him and his life, The question was what is the tangable effect on his life? Even you above don't explain how. YOu say it harms the institution, and refuse to explain how. The truth is it doesn't and can't harm the institution. If you believe otherwise, answer the question.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Then don't use it to justify gay marriage as so many of your colleagues have done.
    I wasn't, sweetie. I don't give a flying **** if there's a gene that made you attracted specifically to your wife, or if you just chose to marry her. All that matters is that while the government is involved in marriage, all people be treated equally with regards to it.



    You are only making my point for me. We have made moral decisions about age of consent.
    Yes, "we" have. (many that I disagree with). And?

    Completely false and I challenge you to provide the quote where I ever used that argument before exposing the ridiculousness of it as I have here.
    You're the one who asked about siblings marrying, not me.


    Yet you would deny children. How is that any different than another moral stance just like those who are against gay marriage have done?
    No, I wouldn't. But that's beside the point. It's very different. We're talking about adults who ARE of the current legal age of consent. And men are allowed to marry women, yet I am not allowed to marry a woman. How is that even remotely correct? As far as your comparison with children, are you insinuating that the reason I cannot marry a woman is because I'm not emotionally mature enough? That's the reason we have laws limiting what children can or cannot do, you know. So, is that seriously your comparison for not allowing me to legally marry a woman? Emotional and/or physical immaturity?

    If that's not your argument, then perhaps you should rethink your silly little children comparison.
    Last edited by rivrrat; 06-21-10 at 11:50 AM.

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    Re: After Final Arguments in Prop. 8 Trial, Maggie Gallagher Expects Judge will Overt

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    I wasn't, sweetie.
    What part of "as so many of your colleagues have done" did you not understand?

    I don't give a flying **** if there's a gene that made you attracted specifically to your wife, or if you just chose to marry her. All that matters is that while the government is involved in marriage, all people be treated equally with regards to it.
    People are treated equally. Lifestyles aren't.

    Yes, "we" have. (many that I disagree with). And?
    So you rip people for making a moral disagreement with gay marriage and you don't see that as a wee bit hypocritical?

    You're the one who asked about siblings marrying, not me.
    So you can't back it up. NExt time please do not falsely accuse me of making arguments I never made.

    No, I wouldn't. But that's beside the point.
    You've already citied the law about children. Do I need to quote your own words again?

    It's very different. We're talking about adults who ARE of the current legal age of consent.
    We are talking about a moral decesion society has made on age. How can you continue to miss this?

    And men are allowed to marry women, yet I am not allowed to marry a woman. How is that even remotely correct?
    Correct? This is about changing the law to accomodate an alternative lifestlyle and pretend its on equal footing to the family unit that our society is built upon. You are going to need more than your feelings to justify changing the law to accomodate it.

    As far as your comparison with children, are you insinuating that the reason I cannot marry a woman is because I'm not emotionally mature enough? That's the reason we have laws limiting what children can or cannot do, you know. So, is that seriously your comparison for not allowing me to legally marry a woman? Emotional and/or physical immaturity?
    I'm saying the argument to change the law needs more than your opinion to justify it and you haven't provided that. You also fail to grasp that the age of consent is a moral decesion no different than the moral decesion some have of opposing gay marriage yet you only want to slam the one you don't agree with and completely miss the hypocracy of that.

    If that's not your argument, then perhaps you should rethink your silly little children comparison.
    You need to read more carefully. The children example was to expose your hypocracy in opposing one moral decesion based in law while attacking another moral decesion some have against gay marriage.

    Now calm down and stick to the facts. What makes gay marriage justifiable to change the law beyond your personal opinion?
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

    John Adams

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