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Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

Ikari said:
People taking responsibility for their actions = taking responsibility for the things we buy and the attitudes and practices we endorse by doing so. If you have such a problem with illegal immigration, then you have to avoid buying things from companies or industries which promote the use of illegal immigrants. Of course, those products tend to be cheaper than other means, and people buy those things regardless.

This illegal immigration thing isn't new, and many of us have indeed reaped the benefits one way or the other through the exploitation of the illegal immigrant. We have all contributed to the problem through our consumer habits and our lax attitude in controlling the government.

You can take your foot out of your mouth whenever you want.
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This is an example of conservative principles forcing those who decide to be here illegally to take responsibility for their actions.
 
Caine said:
Oh Jesus H. Christ.

Show me in the law where the discrimination is Or knock it off with the discrimination claims.
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Discriminatory practices are in the data. It's not white folk running, even though they can be illegal immigrants as well. And the jubilation expressed by some isn't that some illegals were caught, but rather that the hispanics were leaving AZ.
 
One more thing. Hispanic is not a race. There are white Mexicans, black Mexicans, American Indian Mexicans, etc. Everyone who claims that this law would cause racial discrimination does not understand what race is.
 
Caine said:
This is an example of conservative principles forcing those who decide to be here illegally to take responsibility for their actions.
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If the conservative nature of us taking personal responsibility were in place, we'd acknowledge our own actions which led to the build up and promotion of this "problem".
 
Caine said:
You lack understanding of basic english reading skills if you have read the law and fail to understand where those of us who have read it don't see the discrimination.
I don't see anywhere in the law that says you must "target" someone.
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It's libs talking points..... nothing to do with reality at all.
 
Ikari said:
Discriminatory practices are in the data. It's not white folk running, even though they can be illegal immigrants as well. And the jubilation expressed by some isn't that some illegals were caught, but rather that the hispanics were leaving AZ.
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No, the jubilation was that the illegal immigrants were leaving AZ.
 
Dav said:
No, the jubilation was that the illegal immigrants were leaving AZ.
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In fact not. The statement was that the wholesale running out of town of the hispanic people was a good effect; even if not all of them were illegals.
 
What do you think would happen if this law was passed on a federal level?
 
Redress said:
There is some reason for concern. Source: Arizona’s ‘Papers Please’ Law | FactCheck.org



So what we have is profiling allowed to an extent, as allowed under federal law but mostly unenforced at the current time. How police will be trained on the subject has not yet been worked out.
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Your source automatically discredits itself by making a claim "contrary to defenders of the law" and then makes statements not taken from the law.
Can you show me in the law where it states police can take a look at "race, color, or national origin" like your source claims?

If you can show it to me, it would be a first in all these AZ immigrantion threads ive been in.
 
Ikari said:
In fact not. The statement was that the wholesale running out of town of the hispanic people was a good effect; even if not all of them were illegals.
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Really, show me where conservatives are celebrating running Hispanic people regardless of legality out of town.

And there is nothing to suggest that anyone who left was not illegal. That's a narrative that the news article was disgracefully and dishonestly trying to put forward. We wouldn't even be talking about it if they hadn't made the unsupported claim.
 
kaya'08 said:
What do you think would happen if this law was passed on a federal level?
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It already is.

Just there are so few federal agents to do this work, and those who decide to come here illegally know it.
 
Dav said:
Really, show me where conservatives are celebrating running Hispanic people regardless of legality out of town.

And there is nothing to suggest that anyone who left was not illegal. That's a narrative that the news article was disgracefully and dishonestly trying to put forward. We wouldn't even be talking about it if they hadn't made the unsupported claim.
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In fact there was already. The legal immigrants who might be leaving were trivialized in order to exalt the fact that illegals may be leaving. And there is nothing to suggest that everyone who left was illegal. That's an assumption which disgraceful and dishonest in trying to but forward. The fact is that those who support police action against the individual have to prove their case. You need to show that you've predominately affected illegals without having or minimally affecting the legal sector. In the end, there is not enough hard fact presented in the article to go one way or the other. The best assumption is that there is a mix though we cannot speak to the actual statistical breakdown.

In the end, this is a law which makes it hostile towards certain sects of society in such a way as it would cause them to flee. We don't know how many were legal and how many were illegal; but you can't dismiss the impact you may have on legal citizens due to the effect you could have on illegals.
 
Ikari said:
I know you do. You seem to favor draconian, large, and intrusive government while taking no personal responsibility for any of your actions.
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No, he favors enforcement of immigration laws. There's no logical way to extrapolate what you said from that.

In sort...a neo-con.
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You obviously have no idea what a neo-con is. I suggest you ask Fiddytree for a definition, or at very least consult Google or Wikipedia.

Man, I remember when conservatives stood for small, responsible government and people owning up to their actions and the consequences there of. Ahhh the good ol' days.
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How is being anti-illegal immigration being against owning upt to your actions? Where do you even get that idea?

Anyways, conservatives have always been for a tough-on-crime position. This is no different. Nothing that wasn't already illegal is being made illegal... enforcement is just being made tougher.

The people you are describing are classlical liberals/libertarians, who sometimes identify as "conservative" and who conservatives will often agree with on many issues.
 
Dav said:
No, he favors enforcement of immigration laws. There's no logical way to extrapolate what you said from that.



You obviously have no idea what a neo-con is. I suggest you ask Fiddytree for a definition, or at very least consult Google or Wikipedia.



How is being anti-illegal immigration being against owning upt to your actions? Where do you even get that idea?

Anyways, conservatives have always been for a tough-on-crime position. This is no different. Nothing that wasn't already illegal is being made illegal... enforcement is just being made tougher.

The people you are describing are classlical liberals/libertarians, who sometimes identify as "conservative" and who conservatives will often agree with on many issues.
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While liberals may endorse the use of large, draconian measures depending on topic; libertarians do not. So fail right there. As for the personal responsibility thing, that has been answered several times in detail; you can address those posts.
 
Ikari said:
In fact there was already. The legal immigrants who might be leaving were trivialized in order to exalt the fact that illegals may be leaving. And there is nothing to suggest that everyone who left was illegal. That's an assumption which disgraceful and dishonest in trying to but forward. The fact is that those who support police action against the individual have to prove their case. You need to show that you've predominately affected illegals without having or minimally affecting the legal sector. In the end, there is not enough hard fact presented in the article to go one way or the other. The best assumption is that there is a mix though we cannot speak to the actual statistical breakdown.
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The article presents evidence that illegal immigrants have left. It provides no evidence at all that legal immigrants have left. Logic thus dictates that while illegal immigrants have left, absent evidence, it should be assumed that legal immigrants have not.

In the end, this is a law which makes it hostile towards certain sects of society in such a way as it would cause them to flee. We don't know how many were legal and how many were illegal; but you can't dismiss the impact you may have on legal citizens due to the effect you could have on illegals.
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You think it will have an impact on legal immigrants. Fine, but many people, including myself, disagree. These people are the ones cheering the law. Why would they cheer for the effects it has on both legal and illegal Hispanic immigrants, if they don't think it would have any effect on legal immigrants in the first place?

And you didn't show me where any conservative cheered running Hispanics out of town without regard to legality.
 
Ikari said:
While liberals may endorse the use of large, draconian measures depending on topic; libertarians do not. So fail right there.
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Fail right where? I never said that they did. Read my post again.
 
Dav said:
The article presents evidence that illegal immigrants have left. It provides no evidence at all that legal immigrants have left. Logic thus dictates that while illegal immigrants have left, absent evidence, it should be assumed that legal immigrants have not.
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No, it gives evidence that hispanics are leaving AZ. It does not give numbers on the statistical break down of those fleeing. So you have no real way of knowing how many were illegal and how many were legal.

Dav said:
You think it will have an impact on legal immigrants. Fine, but many people, including myself, disagree.
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That's fine. But since you're the one endorsing the law and use of government force, you must prove that you are not greatly affecting legal citizens who are here.

Dav said:
And you didn't show me where any conservative cheered running Hispanics out of town without regard to legality.
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It's on the first page. One responded that the did not care if legal immigrants were leaving so long as illegal immigrants were leaving as well.
 
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kaya'08 said:
What do you think would happen if this law was passed on a federal level?
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The ILLEGAL ALIENS would go back to their point of origins.
 
Ikari said:
No, it gives evidence that hispanics are leaving AZ. It does not give numbers on the statistical break down of those fleeing. So you have no real way of knowing how many were illegal and how many were legal.
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Those leaving seem to be either paranoid, ignorant of the law, or both.
 
Ockham said:
Those leaving seem to be either paranoid, ignorant of the law, or both.
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Perchance. And perchance their paranoia is warranted as well. Is it ok to make hostile laws which will affect certain sects of a population and catch up within it a significant number of legal citizens based solely on the excuse that it will get criminals as well? I don't think so. In fact, I find that to be a very dangerous line of thought.
 
Ikari said:
No, it gives evidence that hispanics are leaving AZ. It does not give numbers on the statistical break down of those fleeing. So you have no real way of knowing how many were illegal and how many were legal.
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It does give evidence that Hispanics are fleeing in droves. Absense any evidence either way, that would mean that logically, no assumption should be made about how many of these are legal vs. illegal. But there is evidence one way, and the article presents evidence that illegal immigrants are leaving in droves. It presents no evidence of any legal immigrants leaving at all. Again, logically, if there is no evidence for it, it should be assumed that it is not happening. Regarding that particular use of logic, Hispanics leaving are an entirely different issue.
 
Ockham said:
Those leaving seem to be either paranoid, ignorant of the law, or both.
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Except there is nothing to suggest that a single legal immigrant has left because of this law.
 
Dav said:
It does give evidence that Hispanics are fleeing in droves. Absense any evidence either way, that would mean that logically, no assumption should be made about how many of these are legal vs. illegal. But there is evidence one way, and the article presents evidence that illegal immigrants are leaving in droves. It presents no evidence of any legal immigrants leaving at all. Again, logically, if there is no evidence for it, it should be assumed that it is not happening. Regarding that particular use of logic, Hispanics leaving are an entirely different issue.
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No, logically you cannot comment on the demographics because you do not have the data to support a claim. All you can really say at this point is that there are a large number of hispanics leaving; be they legal or illegal. You have no proper breakdown of statistics to confidently say anything beyond that.
 
Dav said:
Except there is nothing to suggest that a single legal immigrant has left because of this law.
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There's nothing to suggest that it's 100% illegal immigrants either.
 
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