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Thread: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

  1. #121
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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    I'd like those numbers too, but unfortunately not very much is known about that.
    Which is precisely why I said that the demographics can not be spoken to with any amount of confidence. We don't know how many are legal and illegal. We know a bunch of people are leaving. Most likely is that it's a combination of legal and illegal immigrants, but we can't speak to the actual numbers. To properly evaluate the law and its affects we have to aggregate more data. However, I would also caution people about being exuberant about this effect because it is entirely possible that we've also caught up a significant number of legal citizens. In which case it is a bad law and will have to be removed. But we really need all the data to be able to speak to that
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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    People need to realize that Crunch's OP was simply a Freudian Slip. The desired effect was to chase out Hispanics. The law itself was" aimed at illegal immigrants".
    Where did you pull that out of?

    Wait...... I know, never mind.
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Perchance. And perchance their paranoia is warranted as well. Is it ok to make hostile laws which will affect certain sects of a population and catch up within it a significant number of legal citizens based solely on the excuse that it will get criminals as well? I don't think so. In fact, I find that to be a very dangerous line of thought.
    It's no more or less hostile than the federal immigration law or the laws in 40 some other states.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  4. #124
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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    It's no more or less hostile than the federal immigration law or the laws in 40 some other states.
    We have laws which properly enforce our boarders, yes, should we choose to efficiently enforce those. However, there are none quite so aggressive as requiring the necessity of people to carry upon their person their papers nor which give such leniency to the government in obtaining these papers. A man has the right to secure his person, papers, property, and effects from unreasonable search and seizure.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    There is some reason for concern. Source: Arizona’s ‘Papers Please’ Law | FactCheck.org

    So what we have is profiling allowed to an extent, as allowed under federal law but mostly unenforced at the current time. How police will be trained on the subject has not yet been worked out.
    There's a large deal of issues with this...and I'm not going to even touch on the very nature of the bias of your sources particular analysis where they examine only the claims made by those in support of the bill while looking into none of the suggested inaccuracies claimed by those opposing it...but we'll focus on the three things you listed:

    * The amended law allows police to consider "race, color or national origin" when deciding whether to ask somebody for proof of citizenship, but only to the extent already deemed constitutional by the courts.
    This is like passing a law saying we're going to not allow abortions, accept in cases where its deemed constitutional by the courts, and then people coming out going "GRRRR! They're banning abortions!"

    Well, yeah, only if you somehow ignore the other half of what it says.

    The Supreme court has continually has found that in a direct sense, exercising reasonable suspicion based singularly on the facet of race is unconstituional and thus illegal. You can also look at U.S. v. Montero-Camargo finding that race can't be part of a broader group of reasonings as well. Yes, the Supreme Court has allowed race to be used as a determining factor at times, but this is only when it is a part of a profile of a very specific suspect. For example if a 7-11 was robbed and the person inside stated they saw that it was a 6'5" black man with a hoodie then its not unconstitutional to focus on black individuals. However if they just said "It was a tall guy in a hoodie the cops could not go around focusing only on black people.

    If the law is saying "[These factors] can only be used in cases where its constitutionally allowed" then so what? Why should there be a big flap and complaint about the law allowing something...that's allowed by the law!

    * It remains to be seen how police will interpret the law’s anti-profiling language in practice. State officials tell us they have yet to work out what factors police should be trained to use to establish "reasonable suspicion" of illegal status.
    Ah, gotcha, so because they haven't given specific information out to the media and think tanks obviously that is a good indication that people criticizing the bill by saying its going to do things it legally can't really do are potentially correct. While doing this as well, lets ignore the fact that the state officials and law enforcement have said that they don't plan on racial profiling or implementing strategies to just grab people off the street. They haven't said exactly HOW they're going to go about it yet, so we must assume that they may very well do what they've stated publicly they won't and what the law and courts don't allow.

    Do you realize the entire notion above from your source is as asinine as saying that since Barack Obama has SAID he's a citizen but he hasn't actually shown us specifically his most specific form of citizenship then its absolutely reasonable to suggest that it remains to be seen that he's a citizen.

    Or to throw a bone to all the "Death panel" hating democrats out there reading this, its like saying that while Democrats said there will be no death panels, and because there's no language clearly laying out death panels, that because critics said there WOULD be death panels and we haven't got all the way through the implementation of the Health Care Bill yet that its reasonable suggest that it remains to be seen whether or not there will be "Death Panels" due to this bill since they haven't explicitely laid out the exact ways they're going to do things in regards to the portions of text people kept pointing at.

    * Federal officials are open to criticisms similar to some of those being made about Arizona’s law. A federal manual for training state and local officials says they may consider whether a person has a "thick foreign accent" or looks "out of place" when deciding whether to ask them about their immigration status.
    And yet even here, while still not racial profiling, is lacking severe information to make any kind of informed decision since "out of place" is entirely vague and to my knowledge not a legal standard like "reasonable suspicion" and it does not suggest if these factors alone can cause reasonable suspicion or if they may simply be part of a larger picture that leads to having such.

    And even then, I'd ask this...

    If we are to assume your sources alarm ringing is legit we must assume then that there is legitimate constitutional worry that racial profiling is completely legal (since the notion of saying the Arizona bill allows for it hinges on it being allowable under the courts) and that the federal government urges officers to determine immigration status checks on accents and looking "out of place", then where the hell is the outrage and boycotts towards the federal government then?

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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    We have laws which properly enforce our boarders, yes, should we choose to efficiently enforce those. However, there are none quite so aggressive as requiring the necessity of people to carry upon their person their papers nor which give such leniency to the government in obtaining these papers. A man has the right to secure his person, papers, property, and effects from unreasonable search and seizure.
    Thus "reasonable suspicion" would be beyond "unreasonable search and seizure"
    Eh?
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    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Thus "reasonable suspicion" would be beyond "unreasonable search and seizure"
    Eh?
    I'd like to believe that it would be conducted reasonably and within the context of the rightful law of the land. Time will tell on that one.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    One more thing. Hispanic is not a race. There are white Mexicans, black Mexicans, American Indian Mexicans, etc. Everyone who claims that this law would cause racial discrimination does not understand what race is.
    And those who've been using the term have been using an inaccurate shorthand for the American Indians of Mexico and Central America who form the majority of migrant laborers to the United States. The majority of the misinformed public does that, not people on one side or the other. But you apparently also don't understand what race is, since you tried to compare the "anti-Semitism" of Helen Thomas to "racism" against blacks, despite the fact that Jews are not a race.

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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    We have laws which properly enforce our boarders, yes, should we choose to efficiently enforce those. However, there are none quite so aggressive as requiring the necessity of people to carry upon their person their papers nor which give such leniency to the government in obtaining these papers. A man has the right to secure his person, papers, property, and effects from unreasonable search and seizure.
    And the law in Arizona protects from unlawful search and sezure. So I'm not sure what exactly you find in the Arizona bill that's offensive. I don't see a downside is all I'm saying. Those who want to purposefully be ignorant and ignore the facts of the bill while having the capacity to understand the bill, it's intent etc... and focus only on the "what if's" of police abusing said law - that can and does apply to ALL laws. So they must have their own agenda to fulfill. To those who are ignorant because they either don't understand, haven't read, or don't wish to understand the bill - they may also have their own agenda which may be emotionally fed racism -- that cannot be helped and was probably there all their lives. This just happens to tap into that emotional racism.

    I say it's a win-win. The illegals, legals, racists, ignoramuses, those with agenda are getting out of the state. The state doesn't necessarily WANT those type of people so they can go to Los Angeles or some neighboring state which will have them. Washington is being put on notice that they're inactivity and inattention to this issue for decades is no longer tolerated and the State is taking matters into their own hands - win. Washington get's to play political games and use this issue as a November political football - win. Those involved get lots of air-time on the 24x7 cable sausage news shows - win. The professional protestors have something to protest about before the bill even goes into effect - win!

    I don't see the down side here. I really don't.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Perchance. And perchance their paranoia is warranted as well. Is it ok to make hostile laws which will affect certain sects of a population and catch up within it a significant number of legal citizens based solely on the excuse that it will get criminals as well? I don't think so. In fact, I find that to be a very dangerous line of thought.
    Your significan number of legal citizens being caught up is not proved since the law has not been enacted yet. I see nothing wrong with the Az law. Legal immigrants who are not yet or going to be naturalized have to carry ID/papers by federal law. As far as US citizens, we don't have to. Yet have we not been asked for an ID when legally contacted by LE for whatever reason. They just want to know you are who you say you are. You could be a witness or heck stopped for a minor traffic violation. If you don't have an ID, many times they just let it go or they do a follow up.

    What it boils down to some States like Arizona are tired of the open borders. Fingers can be pointed in many directions on who is a fault. It is time for a reasonalbe solutions. Maybe now the Feds will do something meaningful.
    "I can explain it to you but, I can't understand it for you"

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