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Thread: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

  1. #111
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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Will someone be expected to present data to back up the claim that legal immigrants are leaving because of this law too?
    Other than the article written by an asshat journalist who has no more credibility than you or I?
    Burden of proof is always upon the government. Thus the laws which are enacted must be demonstrated to address the illegal problems without greatly affecting legal citizens. However, I shall agree with you that the article is very poorly written.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There's nothing to suggest that it's 100% illegal immigrants either.
    What is known is that 100,000 illegal immigrants have left. Unless it can be shown that more Hispanics than that have left, then the point remains that absent evidence, logically one cannot draw any conclusions about legal immigrants leaving because of this law, even if they can do so for illegal immigrants. There's nothing to suggest that 100% of Hispanics who left because of the law are illegal immigrants, but there's also nothing to suggest that it's not 100%.

  3. #113
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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Burden of proof is always upon the government. Thus the laws which are enacted must be demonstrated to address the illegal problems without greatly affecting legal citizens. However, I shall agree with you that the article is very poorly written.
    The government isn't making this argument.
    You are, and this asshat journalist is.
    Your suggestion that the burden of proof for the claims that you support from this asshat's article are upon the government is trash.
    Next?
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  4. #114
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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I'm not quite sure you get the idea of "logic". The data presented is that hispanics are leaving due to the law. That's what you can say. But you wish to go beyond that and state that it's only illegal immigrants leaving; but there's no data on that. There are no numbers which state how many of those leaving are legal and how many are illegal. You are making a supposition in assuming the majority are illegal, but you have no hard data to back the claim.
    The article states that 100,000 illegal immigrants have left. That's evidence. No such evidence exists for legal immigrants leaving.
    Hispanic or not Hispanic does not factor into that logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Present the data to back up this claim.
    I didn't present a claim. I stated that "This does not "seem" to be happening at all". In other words, in order for something to "seem" to be happening, there must be some evidence for it. If you claim that legal immigrants are leaving because of the law, the burden of proof is on you. I don't even know what data you wanted from me.

  5. #115
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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    The government isn't making this argument.
    You are, and this asshat journalist is.
    Your suggestion that the burden of proof for the claims that you support from this asshat's article are upon the government is trash.
    Next?
    The government made the law. So yes, arguments to the validity of the law must be supported. Questions and concerns about the law may be posed and those of intellectually honest persuasion would address those questions and concerns.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  6. #116
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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    People need to realize that Crunch's OP was simply a Freudian Slip. The desired effect was to chase out Hispanics. The law itself was" aimed at illegal immigrants".
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    I don't even know what data you wanted from me.
    Numbers, that's all. Of all the people leaving, what percentage are illegal, what percentage are legal citizens who feel threatened by the law. What are the demographics? And an unrelated one to the law I think is rather intriguing...where are they going?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  8. #118
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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The government made the law. So yes, arguments to the validity of the law must be supported. Questions and concerns about the law may be posed and those of intellectually honest persuasion would address those questions and concerns.
    Wow, in a circular fashion, I must repeat my original request because you missed it.

    I grow tired of all these claims of sources, etc.

    Other than an untrustworthy journalist, does anyone have any proof that Legal Immigrants are leaving Arizona because of this law, you know, to support the claim that was made by this journalist, that you folks so eagerly jumped in defense of him.

    Do you understand me now?

    This has nothing to do with the government....... Im having a hard time seeing how you can understand that.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  9. #119
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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    What does the law consider probable cause?
    Actually, that was an erroneous comment by that poster.

    It does not require probable cause. That is actually a higher standard than what it needs, which is reasonable suspicion. What's that you ask? It is a legal standard stating that a person "has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity based on specific and articulable facts and inferences". IE an officer can not simply have a "hunch" but must instead have definitive, explainable, and lawful facts that he can relate to a judge or superior if needed as to why he had reasonable suspicion.

    Now, this legal standard did not magically appear with this law, it has been in the books for quite some time all across the country. To perhaps give you reference, the ability of a police officer to frisk someone for, say a weapon or drugs, is ALSO based on the standard of reasonable suspicion.

    Now, ask yourself this. Would it stand up in court, let alone to a police officers superior, if an officer attempted to justify the frisking of an African-American man he saw walking down the street by going "He had black skin, so I felt it was possible he could be carrying weed"?

    If you answered no, you have some common sense or some legal knowledge, nice job.

    No is the answer. Why's that? The U.S. Supreme Court has found that in a direct sense, exercising reasonable suspicion based singularly on the facet of race is unconstituional and thus illegal. Additionally, U.S. v. Montero-Camargo found that race can't be part of a broader group of reasonings as well. Its currently constitutional only to use race when looking for a specific suspect.

    So the poster was wrong in regards to probable cause, its reasonable suspicion. However reasonable suspicion can lead an action that provides for probable cause which can lead to an arrest. For example stopping someone for speeding and finding them without a driver's license would give someone reasonable suspicion to believe they may be illegal since it requires proof of citizenship to get an ID. An individual then being unable to show citizenship provides probable cause, which can lead to an arrest, at which point further investigation is conducted.

  10. #120
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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Numbers, that's all. Of all the people leaving, what percentage are illegal, what percentage are legal citizens who feel threatened by the law. What are the demographics? And an unrelated one to the law I think is rather intriguing...where are they going?
    I'd like those numbers too, but unfortunately not very much is known about that.
    But the "claim" you quoted was not something that one could use numbers to "prove". That was what confused me.

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