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Thread: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

  1. #101
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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law - USATODAY.com

    Looks like the new law is having the desired effect. Now if they would just do the same (enforce our current laws) on a national scale, the problem would be solved. Good job Arizona.
    Granted with some side effects, but you're right that it seems to be helping to have an effect in regards to the main purpose of the bill which was to reduce the amount of illegal immigrants in the state.

    Now, admittedly, its an unfortunate thing that legals seem to be leaving as well. However there's a few things everyone should stop a moment, think about, and then re-evaluate the situation as I'm seeing a lot of people immediately emotionally jumping to the "Grrr its saying legal people are leaving! That shows its racists or you're racist for liking it" type of view...

    1. The story gives little to no indication of how much the variation is. Is it primarily legals leaving? Primarily illegals? Pretty even split? Is it a handful of legals or illegals and the rest the opposite?

    2. Adding too that, it gives us little to no details about the legals or illegals that are leaving. Are they young or old? Are they extended family to someone that is of the opposite legal status of them?

    3. It gives little to no information about what is actually spurring the movement. Is it fair of discrimination, is it principled disagreement with the law, is it because their family is leaving, etc?

    All of these factors matter and are important before really being able to condemn the possible leaving of legal Hispanics as being too excessive of a cost of this program. For example, if the majority of the "Legals" that are leaving are children who were born in the U.S. to two illegal parents and they're having to leave the state because their parents are then while I see that as unfortunate for the children I do not think that's a problem of the law nor something that is reason it shouldn't exist. While under 18 Children are tied in a significant way to their parents and their parents choices and while generally its unfortunate to "punish" the child for the Parents poor decisions such happens day in, day out in this country, and I see no reason why a special exception could be made here.

    Similarly if most of the "Legals" are leaving because their family or friends are illegal and they're leaving, then again, I don't think this is an issue of the law or something to truly be concerned about. This is not forcing them to leave, it is not out of "Fear" or "pressure" from the government, it is them making a CHOICE to move so they may stay close to criminals that they care about.

    Additionally, if people are leaving the state simply because they disagree with the law I see it as no different or more condemning of the law as some kind of "evil" thing than people leaving the state because they disagree with a tax increase, or too many business regulations being passed, or because it does/doesn't allow gay marriage or late term abortions, etc. You don't get extra sympathy for leaving a state because you dislike a law simply because you happen to be hispanic; you're not special, you're not a snow flake, its not unheard of that people leave an area for displeasure with the government there.

    Now, if the majority ARE leaving because they feel they're going to be discriminated against I think that's unfortunate and I think Arizona should make an effort to reach out to those communities and educate them about the truth's of the law, of which is being twisted continually and routinely all the way up to the administration of the President and is likely stirring much of the fear leading to the fright of being "Discriminated against".

    However, again, them THINKING they're going to be discriminated against and that being their reason to move doesn't mean the law is evil, or bad, or should be too blame for it any more than black individuals leaving a city because they THINK they could be discriminated against by being frisked simply for being black (Being frisked relies on the exact same legal standard as the card check does).

    Ultimately, without that information, its hard to make a judgement on how bad the side effects being caused by this bill are. However, from what's stated in the article, illegals are leaving so at least in some way the main focus of the bill is having a positive effect on that particular issue.

  2. #102
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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, logically you cannot comment on the demographics because you do not have the data to support a claim. All you can really say at this point is that there are a large number of hispanics leaving; be they legal or illegal. You have no proper breakdown of statistics to confidently say anything beyond that.
    Again, when it comes to logic, Hispanics leaving is a completely unrelated issue from legal immigrants leaving. There is evidence of the former and not the latter.

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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Except there is nothing to suggest that a single legal immigrant has left because of this law.
    It's inevitable that some legal citizens will chose to leave with illegal relatives.... and that is there right to do so. Of course the pro-illegal aliens will construe this to be people fleeing for their lives under a draconian and unjust law.

    Ass hats will be ass hats.
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    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Now, admittedly, its an unfortunate thing that legals seem to be leaving as well.
    This does not "seem" to be happening at all.

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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Again, when it comes to logic, Hispanics leaving is a completely unrelated issue from legal immigrants leaving. There is evidence of the former and not the latter.
    I'm not quite sure you get the idea of "logic". The data presented is that hispanics are leaving due to the law. That's what you can say. But you wish to go beyond that and state that it's only illegal immigrants leaving; but there's no data on that. There are no numbers which state how many of those leaving are legal and how many are illegal. You are making a supposition in assuming the majority are illegal, but you have no hard data to back the claim.
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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    This does not "seem" to be happening at all.
    Present the data to back up this claim.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    I really don't see who else the law requiring proof of citizenship is going to target. Are they going to ask white people for proof they're not illegal immigrants from Sweden? They have every reason to be afraid the law will be used against the hispanic populace.
    Well, every reason except for an actual understanding of what the law actually says. Other than that, sure.

    Oh, and yeah, if I'm an officer there and I pull over a white guy who can't produce a driver's license then yeah, I'd follow up in trying to get proof of citizenship.

    However, lets also face facts here. Are the majority of people that are going to get arrested with this going to be white? No. It would be extremely problematic if it did, either pointing to horrendous work done by government think tanks and agencies along with independent organizations or corrupt police work. Why do I say that? Because most numbers I've seen place the Hispanic population as being over 80% of the illegal immigrants in our country. Considering Arizona's location I do not think it would be unreasonable to assume that the number is likely more highly represented there. However, even if its not, it'd be safe to assume that when 80% of the illegals in the country are of a certain ethnicity that it would not be unusual if the majority of those caught with this law also happen to be of that ethnicity without being able to simply point to that and go "See, See, its targeting brown people!"

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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    1. The story gives little to no indication of how much the variation is. Is it primarily legals leaving? Primarily illegals? Pretty even split? Is it a handful of legals or illegals and the rest the opposite?

    2. Adding too that, it gives us little to no details about the legals or illegals that are leaving. Are they young or old? Are they extended family to someone that is of the opposite legal status of them?

    3. It gives little to no information about what is actually spurring the movement. Is it fair of discrimination, is it principled disagreement with the law, is it because their family is leaving, etc?
    While you and I do not always agree, I do appreciate your ability to understand data and to construct coherent and valid arguments.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Will someone be expected to present data to back up the claim that legal immigrants are leaving because of this law too?
    Other than the article written by an asshat journalist who has no more credibility than you or I?
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    However, lets also face facts here. Are the majority of people that are going to get arrested with this going to be white? No. It would be extremely problematic if it did, either pointing to horrendous work done by government think tanks and agencies along with independent organizations or corrupt police work. Why do I say that? Because most numbers I've seen place the Hispanic population as being over 80% of the illegal immigrants in our country. Considering Arizona's location I do not think it would be unreasonable to assume that the number is likely more highly represented there. However, even if its not, it'd be safe to assume that when 80% of the illegals in the country are of a certain ethnicity that it would not be unusual if the majority of those caught with this law also happen to be of that ethnicity without being able to simply point to that and go "See, See, its targeting brown people!"
    Additionally, I would conjecture that should this law prove too much of an inconvenience to too many white people, that this law would not be long in this world.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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