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Mexico teen killed by US Border Patrol, anger high

LiberalAvenger said:
Hell yeah. I was playing in a play ground with a friend when he appeared out of nowhere with a gun pointed at us. We ran, he fired, my friend kept on running and I stopped.
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You know what he's going to say right? "that'll teach you to run from the police" :roll:
 
MrVicchio said:
This is a lie, however, I'll do it here just to shut you up. I was in error in thinking posts were deleted. My bad.

The only error here is expecting you to be honest.

Only in your mind.

Must be nice to sit back on the internet and determine at what distance a rock is dangerous. Ever had someone attack you with malicious intent?

Except the BP Agent was unable to do this because of the person he had handcuffed. Which you have ignored repeatedly.



they....

You've back tracked and attempted to change your position.


No, you keep changing your "position". You've narrowed the parameters of why you ARE right and the rest of us are wrong to justify your stance. The actual situation doesn't resemble the story you've concocted

The only one misrepresenting your position, is you. And you are doing so trying to avoid being shown to be completely and utterly wrong.
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I don't know why anyone even bothers when you get like this.
 
jallman said:
I agree and even under the loose guidelines Tucker laid out, it's still a case by case basis. He could have also opened fire to protect the suspect he had in custody, too. It really just looked like a bunch of subhuman monkeys in full riot mode were trying to hurt the agent with no regard for one of their own that was being held. I still would have preferred to see him move away, but there's more to being in the situation than you see in a video.

I will reserve judgment of the situation until the findings of an investigation are reported.
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A very fair approach.

I must concede that I have been perhaps too quick to judge the Agent poorly.

While, I haven't seen anything to contradict my initial inclina6tions on the issue, I should withold full judgment until the investigation is complete.
 
jallman said:
Why don't you go ahead and emphasize the entire operative phrase instead of playing semantics and loading a single word within that phrase?
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Because I don't believe that Border Patrol should have to retreat away from the Border and ignore being attacked because someone is attacking them.

Retreating is retreating, we shouldn't be made to retreat at all.

Especially if the guy was in the process of detaining an individual who has just crossed the border and was getting attacked by rocks that Tucker says he should just be allowed to be interrupted becuase he now has to retreat.
 
Jetboogieman said:
My assessment of the video seems to indicate the cop was holding his gun with one hand, while holding a suspect, just standing wide open. The range at which the rocks must have been thrown, was far enough away to have been dodged, and I didn't see the cop moving at all because of any rocks thrown.

If he felt any threat to his life would he have not moved to any sort of cover, assessed the situation and then decided to open fire?
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What should he do with the suspect? Hide behind them? Let them go?

Are we going to let idiots hurling rocks at Agents from the other side of the border interrupt the duties those Agents have because "they are just rocks"
 
Jetboogieman said:
You know what he's going to say right? "that'll teach you to run from the police" :roll:
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Why in the hell would you run from the police if you aren't doing something highly illegal with that weapon?
 
Caine said:
Why in the hell would you run from the police if you aren't doing something highly illegal with that weapon?
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I did not have a weapon. My friend and I were swinging on the swings when the part time park ranger came running at us screaming and waving his gun at us. I really thought he was going to shoot us. He tried to shoot me but he missed. I was 16 years old at the time and weighed about 120 pounds.

BTW, I have never had a police record for anything. I had a top secret security clearance in the army, just saying.
 
Caine said:
Because I don't believe that Border Patrol should have to retreat away from the Border and ignore being attacked because someone is attacking them.
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That has nothing to do with the attempt you made to load a single word by ignoring the rest of the phrase. As for your belief, I don't believe stepping out of rock throwing range to avoid firing into another country at an unarmed civilian of that country is too much to expect.

Retreating is retreating, we shouldn't be made to retreat at all.
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No retreating is not retreating. There is a route and then there is a safe retreat to a better vantage. If the rock throwers cross the border, then by all means fire at them on our side. But there is ZERO excuse for firing on rock throwers across the border.

Especially if the guy was in the process of detaining an individual who has just crossed the border and was getting attacked by rocks that Tucker says he should just be allowed to be interrupted becuase he now has to retreat.
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Retreat with the suspect in tow. No one was facing lethal force from across that border.
 
LiberalAvenger said:
I did not have a weapon. My friend and I were swinging on the swings when the part time park ranger came running at us screaming and waving his gun at us. I really thought he was going to shoot us. He tried to shoot me but he missed. I was 16 years old at the time and weighed about 120 pounds.

BTW, I have never had a police record for anything. I had a top secret security clearance in the army, just saying.
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Oh ****, I went back and re-read your original post.

I must have retardafied my reading because I somehow read you were playing with a gun with a friend when .......

Park Ranger sounds like an idiot.
 
Caine said:
Oh ****, I went back and re-read your original post.

I must have retardafied my reading because I somehow read you were playing with a gun with a friend when .......

Park Ranger sounds like an idiot.
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Sadly many people in law enforcement if you give them a gun they go and act all reckless or like you have to RESPECT them because they are the authority. sucks.
 
jallman said:
That has nothing to do with the attempt you made to load a single word by ignoring the rest of the phrase. As for your belief, I don't believe stepping out of rock throwing range to avoid firing into another country at an unarmed civilian of that country is too much to expect.



No retreating is not retreating. There is a route and then there is a safe retreat to a better vantage. If the rock throwers cross the border, then by all means fire at them on our side. But there is ZERO excuse for firing on rock throwers across the border.



Retreat with the suspect in tow. No one was facing lethal force from across that border.
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So while Im getting hit in the head with rocks hurled at high velocity and still struggling with an individual attempting to resist my attempts to detain him Im supposed to just grow like Incredible Hulk and one arm drag the suspect away from the border so as to avoid the rocks?

No, im going to shoot the mother ****er throwing rocks at me and continue to detain said suspect.
 
Caine said:
So while Im getting hit in the head with rocks hurled at high velocity and still struggling with an individual attempting to resist my attempts to detain him Im supposed to just grow like Incredible Hulk and one arm drag the suspect away from the border so as to avoid the rocks?

No, im going to shoot the mother ****er throwing rocks at me and continue to detain said suspect.
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The BP agent had a helmet on.
 
Gray_Fox_86 said:
Sadly many people in law enforcement if you give them a gun they go and act all reckless or like you have to RESPECT them because they are the authority. sucks.
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Silly overgeneralization.

Counts for like maybe 2% of the people you just generalized.
 
jallman said:
But there is ZERO excuse for firing on rock throwers across the border.



Retreat with the suspect in tow. No one was facing lethal force from across that border.
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Except that multiple times in past situations, the BP has fired INTO Mexico at rock throwers, and none of the agents were prosecuted for wrong doing. So this position of yours, is just plain wrong.
 
MrVicchio said:
This is a lie, however, I'll do it here just to shut you up. I was in error in thinking posts were deleted. My bad.
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It's not a lie. You never once said "**** tuck, I'm sorry for implying you deleted the posts that weren't in tehis thread."

The only error here is expecting you to be honest.
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What have I been dishonest about?

Only in your mind.
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No, it's pretty obviously there. I quoted the posts that prove my position has never changed. I can only lead the horse to water, if it chooses not to drink, that's on the horse.

Must be nice to sit back on the internet and determine at what distance a rock is dangerous. Ever had someone attack you with malicious intent?
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Numerous times. With thrown rocks and with real weapons as well.

Except the BP Agent was unable to do this because of the person he had handcuffed. Which you have ignored repeatedly.
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Was he being held in place by the guy? :confused:



they....
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My mistake. I meant to add "Tehy are not allowing the border agent this self-preservation option. If they choose to deny that option, they should be shot."

You've back tracked and attempted to change your position.
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That is absolutely false. My position has never changed. I posted my initial posts proving this already.

No, you keep changing your "position". You've narrowed the parameters of why you ARE right and the rest of us are wrong to justify your stance. The actual situation doesn't resemble the story you've concocted
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I've changed nothing. The only thing that could have changed is your understanding of my position. The only reason I can think of for your claim that I altered my position would be that you do not want to admit having not understood it before.




It would seem that you are arguing his being in Mexico was the pertinent factor.
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Yes. The pertinent factor between two different situations of rock throwing.

Why do you ignore the facts? I was responding to a situation where an agent used lethal force against a person throwing rocks who was on the US side of th eborder. What is th edifference between that case adn this one.

Hint: It's the side of the border they were on.

See how easy that is.


As shown here you are stuck on "US Side/Mexican Side"
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In a comparison of two rock throwing incidents, yes. In those cases the side of th ebroder becoems the pertinent factor. All one needs to do is track down what that quote was in response to to see how painfully obvious that is.


(oh and nice personal attack on Tex there)
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The most important tool necessary to determine that my position is wrong is an understanding of my position. It's not a personal attack to make a statemnt of fact. It's not like I told him he had earned my contemt or that he had no character or some other emotional drivel such as that.



Expect the Agent COULDN'T retreat... AND I've also posted links showing the BP not only has fired into Mexico in Defense against Rocks being thrown, but that they are authorized to do so.
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What prevented the agent form moving? Was the suspect in custody holding him in place? If so, that would absolutley change my position about his rightful use of lethal force, although in that case I would say that he should have used it on the suspect in custody.

And are those links regarding the boat situation? That doesn't really contradict my position.

So far, your arguments are not withstanding scrutiny... well except by you of course.
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And anyone who actually understands what my position was, and always has been. Tehy might not agree with my position, but if they understand my position they at least know it has held up to your "scrutiny" (this is because you have yet to actually scrutinize my position)





The only one misrepresenting your position, is you. And you are doing so trying to avoid being shown to be completely and utterly wrong.
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That is a lie.
 
Tucker Case said:
It's not a lie. You never once said "**** tuck, I'm sorry for implying you deleted the posts that weren't in tehis thread."



What have I been dishonest about?



No, it's pretty obviously there. I quoted the posts that prove my position has never changed. I can only lead the horse to water, if it chooses not to drink, that's on the horse.



Numerous times. With thrown rocks and with real weapons as well.



Was he being held in place by the guy? :confused:





My mistake. I meant to add "Tehy are not allowing the border agent this self-preservation option. If they choose to deny that option, they should be shot."



That is absolutely false. My position has never changed. I posted my initial posts proving this already.



I've changed nothing. The only thing that could have changed is your understanding of my position. The only reason I can think of for your claim that I altered my position would be that you do not want to admit having not understood it before.






Yes. The pertinent factor between two different situations of rock throwing.

Why do you ignore the facts? I was responding to a situation where an agent used lethal force against a person throwing rocks who was on the US side of th eborder. What is th edifference between that case adn this one.

Hint: It's the side of the border they were on.

See how easy that is.




In a comparison of two rock throwing incidents, yes. In those cases the side of th ebroder becoems the pertinent factor. All one needs to do is track down what that quote was in response to to see how painfully obvious that is.




The most important tool necessary to determine that my position is wrong is an understanding of my position. It's not a personal attack to make a statemnt of fact. It's not like I told him he had earned my contemt or that he had no character or some other emotional drivel such as that.





What prevented the agent form moving? Was the suspect in custody holding him in place? If so, that would absolutley change my position about his rightful use of lethal force, although in that case I would say that he should have used it on the suspect in custody.

And are those links regarding the boat situation? That doesn't really contradict my position.



And anyone who actually understands what my position was, and always has been. Tehy might not agree with my position, but if they understand my position they at least know it has held up to your "scrutiny" (this is because you have yet to actually scrutinize my position)







That is a lie.
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Can you two just stop??? Tuck, CC pays you to be wrong. Now do you job. :D
 
Caine said:
Because I don't believe that Border Patrol should have to retreat away from the Border and ignore being attacked because someone is attacking them.

Retreating is retreating, we shouldn't be made to retreat at all.

Especially if the guy was in the process of detaining an individual who has just crossed the border and was getting attacked by rocks that Tucker says he should just be allowed to be interrupted becuase he now has to retreat.
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If his life was actually in danger, and he didn't give up his attempted arrest in order to provide himself better coverage from the attacks, he would deserve to die.

Would he be expected to keep holding the guy if they were bullets coming at him? I'd think that any rational and intelligent person would release teh guy and try to defend himself from a position of cover.
 
Caine said:
Silly overgeneralization.

Counts for like maybe 2% of the people you just generalized.
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No more like 40% which still is a large number and pretty silly.
 
jallman said:
That has nothing to do with the attempt you made to load a single word by ignoring the rest of the phrase. As for your belief, I don't believe stepping out of rock throwing range to avoid firing into another country at an unarmed civilian of that country is too much to expect.



No retreating is not retreating. There is a route and then there is a safe retreat to a better vantage. If the rock throwers cross the border, then by all means fire at them on our side. But there is ZERO excuse for firing on rock throwers across the border.



Retreat with the suspect in tow. No one was facing lethal force from across that border.
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Actually Jallman, from that video and the reports that the BP agent gave, there looked to be at least one, if not two of the group on our side of the border when the BP initially started shooting. It wasn't like the group of guys were just standing across a fence on their side of the border lobbing rocks at a BP detaining someone. They were all on our side initially, and ran off when the BP showed up. Then it looks like, after the BP caught one of them, the others started throwing rocks at the BP, some still on our side of the border and pretty close. (I was wrong on my earlier estimate of how close the teen was shot relative to the BP, but it was still relatively close, and at least one of the guys was within that initial distance while the BP was struggling with the one he had caught.) Now, I don't really know if they were still throwing rocks at him when he actually shot the teen, but he certainly wasn't just shooting at people who were just standing in Mexico, throwing rocks at him.
 
MrVicchio said:
Except that multiple times in past situations, the BP has fired INTO Mexico at rock throwers, and none of the agents were prosecuted for wrong doing. So this position of yours, is just plain wrong.
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No, it is a point of contention. You need to learn the difference if you are going to be at a debate site.
 
roguenuke said:
Actually Jallman, from that video and the reports that the BP agent gave, there looked to be at least one, if not two of the group on our side of the border when the BP initially started shooting.
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And if they were on our side, he had every right to open fire.
 
roguenuke said:
Actually Jallman, from that video and the reports that the BP agent gave, there looked to be at least one, if not two of the group on our side of the border when the BP initially started shooting. It wasn't like the group of guys were just standing across a fence on their side of the border lobbing rocks at a BP detaining someone. They were all on our side initially, and ran off when the BP showed up. Then it looks like, after the BP caught one of them, the others started throwing rocks at the BP, some still on our side of the border and pretty close. (I was wrong on my earlier estimate of how close the teen was shot relative to the BP, but it was still relatively close, and at least one of the guys was within that initial distance while the BP was struggling with the one he had caught.) Now, I don't really know if they were still throwing rocks at him when he actually shot the teen, but he certainly wasn't just shooting at people who were just standing in Mexico, throwing rocks at him.
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Had he shot one of the one's that were on the US side of the border, I wouldn't have had a problem with it.
 
Caine said:
So while Im getting hit in the head with rocks hurled at high velocity and still struggling with an individual attempting to resist my attempts to detain him Im supposed to just grow like Incredible Hulk and one arm drag the suspect away from the border so as to avoid the rocks?

No, im going to shoot the mother ****er throwing rocks at me and continue to detain said suspect.
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Then you would deserve to be tried for murder.
 
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