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Mexico teen killed by US Border Patrol, anger high

Was he throwing rocks? Yes

Was he shot? Yes

Did the court uphold that shooting a rock thrower by the border patrol was a sufficient use of force? Yes

You were wrong Tucker. Its really sad to see you pretending you aren't when its so obvious.

Was he on US soil? Yes.

If you are unwilling to comprehend my argument, you are not equipped with the necessary tools to make any claims about me being wrong.
 
I don't know if the video has been posted but here it is:


That was the first time a had seen a version of the video with the color graphic additions. Made the action much easier to follow.

Believe that "yellow line" just before the kid got shot was supposed to be representing the US/Mexican border line. If it is accurate it paints a pretty good summary of who was where as the event transpired....


.
 
Was he on US soil? Yes.

If you are unwilling to comprehend my argument, you are not equipped with the necessary tools to make any claims about me being wrong.

I'd be happy to show where you said it but conviently, ALL your posts and ALL of my replies to you have been REMOVED from this thread.

I've heard of whitewashing dude but you take the cake.
 
Was he on US soil? Yes.

If you are unwilling to comprehend my argument, you are not equipped with the necessary tools to make any claims about me being wrong.

So what you are suggesting is that they can attack from the other side of the border and we shouldn't be capable of doing a damn thing?

That they can make our border patrol retreat off of the border via weapons?
 
Was he on US soil? Yes.

If you are unwilling to comprehend my argument, you are not equipped with the necessary tools to make any claims about me being wrong.

Except that we have posted OTHER LINKS of the BP firing INTO MEXICO to defend themselves.

So your argument that Rocks aren't a danger...

Utterly refuted.

Your argument that the Perp was in Mexico MATTERS...

Utterly refuted.

You want to continue on this line of Fail, be my guest. The only point you have is that YOU think you are right. Facts, reality, they all disagree with you.

Oh and why did you delete all those posts in this thread? That is a great question...
 
And to settle Tucker is COMPLETELY and UTTERLY full of ****, I present to you the following:

Can Border Patrol Shoot Into Mexico?
Can Border Patrol Shoot Into Mexico? | KTSM News Channel 9

By Oralia Ortega - Main Anchor
Wednesday, June 9, 2010 - 9:20pm
It's been reported that Border Patrol agents don't have the right to shoot into Mexico.

Tonight we've learned that's not true. Border Patrol says there is no such policy that says agents can't shoot into Mexico.

IF you follow the link, you'll see there is even a nice video on the issue.

Tucker, you lose, and lose badly. So how about you admit your opinions are wrong, and that you have been in great error this entire thread.

And a previous incident of beer bottles and rocks resulting in shots fired:

http://www.themonitor.com/articles/shots-35191-border-fires.html
 
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And to settle Tucker is COMPLETELY and UTTERLY full of ****, I present to you the following:


Can Border Patrol Shoot Into Mexico? | KTSM News Channel 9



IF you follow the link, you'll see there is even a nice video on the issue.

Tucker, you lose, and lose badly. So how about you admit your opinions are wrong, and that you have been in great error this entire thread.

And a previous incident of beer bottles and rocks resulting in shots fired:

Border Patrol fires shots into Mexico | shots, border, fires - Now - TheMonitor.com

LOL wow. Open and shut ownage. Even with the rest of his posts and my replies mysteriously "disappearing" from this thread, thats the nail in the coffin.
 
That was the first time a had seen a version of the video with the color graphic additions. Made the action much easier to follow.

Believe that "yellow line" just before the kid got shot was supposed to be representing the US/Mexican border line. If it is accurate it paints a pretty good summary of who was where as the event transpired....


.

It's a **** video. Word is the FBI has tapes from the US Side taht show everything, including the rocks.. and a much clearer view of the action.
 
Even with the rest of his posts and my replies mysteriously "disappearing" from this thread, thats the nail in the coffin.

Nothing disappeared. That was my mistake. It was another thread with a similar name.
 
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And to settle Tucker is COMPLETELY and UTTERLY full of ****, I present to you the following:


Can Border Patrol Shoot Into Mexico? | KTSM News Channel 9



IF you follow the link, you'll see there is even a nice video on the issue.

Tucker, you lose, and lose badly. So how about you admit your opinions are wrong, and that you have been in great error this entire thread.

And a previous incident of beer bottles and rocks resulting in shots fired:

Border Patrol fires shots into Mexico | shots, border, fires - Now - TheMonitor.com

I can't understand how you can insult so many people without getting banned.
 
So what you are suggesting is that they can attack from the other side of the border and we shouldn't be capable of doing a damn thing?

That they can make our border patrol retreat off of the border via weapons?

No. I'm not saying that. That is a strawman.

My argument is entirely about rocks being thrown over the broder not being a legitimate enough threat to warrant lethal force against someone on the Mexican side of the broder. As range increases, the danger form thrown rocks decreases dramatically. The border agent has the option to retreat a short distance in order to protect themselves.

If the person throwing rocks chooses to close the distance in order to increase teh efficacy of th erocks, they will have to cross the border. At that point, lethal force is warranted because they are pressing the issue.

If these were a more effective weapon, then the border agent has every right to shoot over the border, IMO. If these kids were on the Mexican side of th eborder and had pointed a gun or a crossbow, or a bow and arrow or some other weapon where a leisurely saunter backwards would not have been enough to offer protection, then the border agent is fully justified to use lethal force in response.
 
Oh and why did you delete all those posts in this thread? That is a great question...

I'd be happy to show where you said it but conviently, ALL your posts and ALL of my replies to you have been REMOVED from this thread.

I've heard of whitewashing dude but you take the cake.

Nothing disappeared. That was my mistake. It was another thread with a similar name.

:rofl: Don't worry. I'm used to people making ignorant accusations against me without any legitimate proof. No reason to actually apologize for making them. :lol:
 
I can't understand how you can insult so many people without getting banned.

Considering the level of things around here you don't understand, this is not surprising. I am not insulting Tucker, I am lambasting his arrogance and ego with facts that refute him completely.
 
:rofl: Don't worry. I'm used to people making ignorant accusations against me without any legitimate proof. No reason to actually apologize for making them. :lol:

And we're used to you losing debates and ignoring the fact you were proven completely wrong. Next.
 
And to settle Tucker is COMPLETELY and UTTERLY full of ****, I present to you the following:


Can Border Patrol Shoot Into Mexico? | KTSM News Channel 9



IF you follow the link, you'll see there is even a nice video on the issue.

Tucker, you lose, and lose badly. So how about you admit your opinions are wrong, and that you have been in great error this entire thread.

And a previous incident of beer bottles and rocks resulting in shots fired:

Border Patrol fires shots into Mexico | shots, border, fires - Now - TheMonitor.com

That doesn't counter my points.

I'm arguing the "great discretion" aspect in this particular case. I am saying that the agent in this particular case did not use "great discretion".

Like I said before, if you don't understand what I'm saying, you aren't equipped with the necessary tools to claim that I'm wrong. What you think is proving me wrong is only solidifying my specific argument.
 
:rofl: Don't worry. I'm used to people making ignorant accusations against me without any legitimate proof. No reason to actually apologize for making them. :lol:

At least I can admit my mistake.

First you argued that it was dissperportionate force to use a firearm to stop rock throwers and we gave you the case where it was deemed lawful.

Then you lied you ever said that and added the caviat that it also had to be throwing rocks from the other side of the border and Mr V proved that was just as laughably wrong.

You were not only dead wrong, you were laughably dead wrong and you still can't admit it despite the evidnce being right in front of you. Goes in spades with your lack of character.
 
That doesn't counter my points.
like hell it doesn't.

I'm arguing the "great discretion" aspect in this particular case. I am saying that the agent in this particular case did not use "great discretion".
Pure personal opinion, not backed by facts.

Like I said before, if you don't understand what I'm saying, you aren't equipped with the necessary tools to claim that I'm wrong. What you think is proving me wrong is only solidifying my specific argument.

Now you're just being flat out insulting calling anyone that doesn't agree with you stupid.

Your arguments were:

Rocks do not rise to the level of lethal force.

This has been proven wrong in multiple posts.

Also that by firing ACROSS the border, the Agent was committing murder as he had not right to do so.

This has been proven wrong in multiple posts.


You have nothing Tucker, of factual, provable basis for your stance aside your own opinion of how the Agent should have reacted. You base this not on the rules and regulations of Law Enforcement, not on the Situation as we know it, but on emotional prejudice and uninformed opinion.

The FBI has video that clearly shows the agents under assualt:

The FBI has been studying videos of the incident and said some of the video does show rocks being thrown at the Border Patrol agents, the official said.
Youth fatally shot by border agent had smuggling ties, official says - CNN.com

The bottom line: Our agents were under direct attack by rocks, and one responded with lethal force. A situation that has occurred in the past, as I've shown, and will happen again. The previous incidents did not result in the agents being found in the wrong, and neither will this one.

Your stance would be to punish this agent, and put the fear of prosecution in the hearts of every BP Agent we have. THAT **** GETS PEOPLE KILLED.
 
And we're used to you losing debates and ignoring the fact you were proven completely wrong. Next.

:lol: You still haven't understood my arguments. Just like your accusations before, your claims of proving me wrong are founded on ignorance of the truth.

I haven't been proven wrong.

What you've proven was that when someone throws rocks at agents on the US side of the border, lethal force is justified (something I never disagreed with)

You've shown that border agents can, in certain circumstances, use lethal force against someone on the Mexican side or the broder. (Again, something I never disagreed with)

What you haven't shown is that border agents can use lethal force agianst someone throwing rocks from the Mexican side of the border. (Which is what I'm arguing)
 
:lol: You still haven't understood my arguments. Just like your accusations before, your claims of proving me wrong are founded on ignorance of the truth.

I haven't been proven wrong.
:blink:

What you've proven was that when someone throws rocks at agents on the US side of the border, lethal force is justified (something I never disagreed with)
:blink:
You've shown that border agents can, in certain circumstances, use lethal force against someone on the Mexican side or the broder. (Again, something I never disagreed with)
:blink:
What you haven't shown is that border agents can use lethal force agianst someone throwing rocks from the Mexican side of the border. (Which is what I'm arguing)
WHICH I proved they can. SEVERAL times.

Let's review, since you seemed to have missed it, repeatedly.

NEAR MADERO — U.S. Border Patrol agents opened fire on an undisclosed number of people throwing beer bottles at one of the agency’s boats Monday morning.

Border Patrol officials said agents opened fire from their boat on the Rio Grande close to the Chimney Park RV Resort near Madero about 8 a.m. Monday.

Local Border Patrol spokesman Joe Treviño said no injuries were reported during the incident — either from the gunfire or the objects thrown at the agents.

Rocks, bottles and other objects were used during the attack, said Treviño, who emphasized that agents continue to investigate the incident.

With us so far?

Border Patrol fires shots into Mexico

Border Patrol fires shots into Mexico | shots, border, fires - Now - TheMonitor.com

Tonight we've learned that's not true. Border Patrol says there is no such policy that says agents can't shoot into Mexico.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...en-killed-us-border-patrol-anger-high-19.html

Get it yet Tucker? You have been proven, wrong.

Oh and since the BP Doesn't allow "Warning shots" they shoot into Mexico to kill.
 
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No. I'm not saying that. That is a strawman.

My argument is entirely about rocks being thrown over the broder not being a legitimate enough threat to warrant lethal force against someone on the Mexican side of the broder. As range increases, the danger form thrown rocks decreases dramatically. The border agent has the option to retreat a short distance in order to protect themselves.

If the person throwing rocks chooses to close the distance in order to increase teh efficacy of th erocks, they will have to cross the border. At that point, lethal force is warranted because they are pressing the issue.

If these were a more effective weapon, then the border agent has every right to shoot over the border, IMO. If these kids were on the Mexican side of th eborder and had pointed a gun or a crossbow, or a bow and arrow or some other weapon where a leisurely saunter backwards would not have been enough to offer protection, then the border agent is fully justified to use lethal force in response.

That video that was posted though, even showed that at least some of the people throwing rocks were on our side of the border with the BP, but then ran back across when they realized that the BP was pulling out his weapon. But even with him pulling his weapon, they still seemed to be shouting, although granted with that video you couldn't really tell if they were throwing rocks. Along with that, I can't imagine that it would be really easy to just back up to a relatively safer position with a person in tow, especially one who is struggling. Plus the fact that some of the people throwing the rocks didn't seem to have much restraint against coming across to our side of the border anyway, so it would be logical to assume that the rock throwers might have pursued the BP with their rocks even if he had have just backed up.

There is no way that I would condemn a BP for such a shooting, even into Mexico, when by all accounts given he seems to have been just defending himself. Especially not when you are talking about a border difference of a few feet. From the looks of that video, the kid who got shot was shot within 15 or 20 feet of the BP, maybe closer. And it was clear that someone (couldn't really tell if it was the person shot or someone else) was obviously on our side of the border, but ran back to the other side as the BP started shooting.
 
At least I can admit my mistake.

I admit mistakes all the time. I also have teh fortitude to actually apologize for making them, especialy if they involve an accusation.

First you argued that it was dissperportionate force to use a firearm to stop rock throwers and we gave you the case where it was deemed lawful.

False. My initial post was:

The Mexicans were right to prevent armed foreigners, who had already shot and killed a Mexican national on Mexican soil, from crossing their border.

They would have been right to shoot them if they had pressed the issue. In fact, since the US border patrol actually shot someone who was on the Mexican side of the border that was not armed with any type of legitimate weapon, they need to be prosecuted. That is an act of war.

As you can see, the argument involved them being on the Mexican side of the border from the very start. I don't consider rocks thrown at a distance of greater than 20 feet to be a legitimate weapon to warrant lethal force. But I do allow for the caveat that Lethal force is warranted if the perosn is on the US side of the border, due to the fact that this is well-within the Border Guards jurisdiction.

The clarification about being able to shoot over the border came here (which is the third of fourth post by me in that thread):

The border guard shot a Mexican National on Mexican soil. It's out of his jurisdiction. He is not authorized to do that unless his life is truly in danger, which it wasn't. If they were shooting, then he would have been authorized to defend himself with lethal force.

Clearly I was never arguing anything but what I have said I was arguing the whole time. Nothing has changed in my stance.

Then you lied you ever said that and added the caviat that it also had to be throwing rocks from the other side of the border and Mr V proved that was just as laughably wrong.

As you can see, the only person lying is you. You are lying about understanding my argument, and you are lying in how you are portraying that argument. Nothing I have said has been proven wrong.

You were not only dead wrong, you were laughably dead wrong and you still can't admit it despite the evidnce being right in front of you. Goes in spades with your lack of character.

Me admitting errror just last week:

The more I've thought about it, the more I'm seeing your position. The fact that she's lumping every Israeli Jew into the "GTFO" category is the key to it being racist.

Jews have always been present in the region, well before the creation of the Israeli state.

When someone actually proves me wrong, I am totally willing to admit error. I would even be willing to wager that I have done this far mroe often than you have.

My contention is that your admission of error was merely a prevetantaive measure to keep me form pointing out the error, which you could do nothing to dodge. You still haven't admitted the error that exists in the attacks on my credibility. That can only be admitted through an apology directly tro me for your unfounded accusations.

By teh way, on the "character" accusation, allow me to add into evidence an apology that I have offered to others due to an error made by me:

Allow me to add my apologies to anyone who was offended by my previous statements, which essentially amounted to a defense of Helen Thomas' comments. In retrospect, I see that her comments were truly reprehensible.

I should have been more sensitive to how this is an attack on all Israeli Jews, and in retrospect I feel terrible for having defended her comments in any way.

My sincerest apologies to all who were affected.

As I thought about my error in that thread, it occured to me that it might have caused offense to otehrs. I added the apology as an additional aspect due to the fact that I felt guilty over the offense that my error may have caused. It may not have been absolutey necessary in that case, for I made no accusations, but I offered it anyway because I felt it was the right thing to do in that case.

What I did not do was compound the error by repeating it. i.e. Your accusations against me earlier for having "deleted" posts was as unfounded as your accusations now about my character. I do not expect you to have the character to apologize for either of these accusations, but I would be pelasently surprised if you did display that degree of character.
 
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Yeah - really?

If someone from within mexico shot across the border to someone in the US - wouldn't it be WRONG?




It happens all the time. We usually don't shoot back. coyotes and drug smugglers, along with mexican federalis have fired at border patrol agents.
 
It happens all the time. We usually don't shoot back. coyotes and drug smugglers, along with mexican federalis have fired at border patrol agents.

In any case where the border patrol agents are shot at, I absolutley support their ability to shoot back. If they are not shooting back in these instances, I agree with you that they should be shooting into Mexico more often. ;)
 
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