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Thread: Mexico teen killed by US Border Patrol, anger high

  1. #191
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    Re: Mexico teen killed by US Border Patrol, anger high

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    : Don't worry. I'm used to people making ignorant accusations against me without any legitimate proof. No reason to actually apologize for making them.
    At least I can admit my mistake.

    First you argued that it was dissperportionate force to use a firearm to stop rock throwers and we gave you the case where it was deemed lawful.

    Then you lied you ever said that and added the caviat that it also had to be throwing rocks from the other side of the border and Mr V proved that was just as laughably wrong.

    You were not only dead wrong, you were laughably dead wrong and you still can't admit it despite the evidnce being right in front of you. Goes in spades with your lack of character.
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  2. #192
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    Re: Mexico teen killed by US Border Patrol, anger high

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    That doesn't counter my points.
    like hell it doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I'm arguing the "great discretion" aspect in this particular case. I am saying that the agent in this particular case did not use "great discretion".
    Pure personal opinion, not backed by facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Like I said before, if you don't understand what I'm saying, you aren't equipped with the necessary tools to claim that I'm wrong. What you think is proving me wrong is only solidifying my specific argument.
    Now you're just being flat out insulting calling anyone that doesn't agree with you stupid.

    Your arguments were:

    Rocks do not rise to the level of lethal force.

    This has been proven wrong in multiple posts.

    Also that by firing ACROSS the border, the Agent was committing murder as he had not right to do so.

    This has been proven wrong in multiple posts.


    You have nothing Tucker, of factual, provable basis for your stance aside your own opinion of how the Agent should have reacted. You base this not on the rules and regulations of Law Enforcement, not on the Situation as we know it, but on emotional prejudice and uninformed opinion.

    The FBI has video that clearly shows the agents under assualt:

    The FBI has been studying videos of the incident and said some of the video does show rocks being thrown at the Border Patrol agents, the official said.
    Youth fatally shot by border agent had smuggling ties, official says - CNN.com

    The bottom line: Our agents were under direct attack by rocks, and one responded with lethal force. A situation that has occurred in the past, as I've shown, and will happen again. The previous incidents did not result in the agents being found in the wrong, and neither will this one.

    Your stance would be to punish this agent, and put the fear of prosecution in the hearts of every BP Agent we have. THAT **** GETS PEOPLE KILLED.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



  3. #193
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    Re: Mexico teen killed by US Border Patrol, anger high

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    And we're used to you losing debates and ignoring the fact you were proven completely wrong. Next.
    You still haven't understood my arguments. Just like your accusations before, your claims of proving me wrong are founded on ignorance of the truth.

    I haven't been proven wrong.

    What you've proven was that when someone throws rocks at agents on the US side of the border, lethal force is justified (something I never disagreed with)

    You've shown that border agents can, in certain circumstances, use lethal force against someone on the Mexican side or the broder. (Again, something I never disagreed with)

    What you haven't shown is that border agents can use lethal force agianst someone throwing rocks from the Mexican side of the border. (Which is what I'm arguing)
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  4. #194
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    Re: Mexico teen killed by US Border Patrol, anger high

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    You still haven't understood my arguments. Just like your accusations before, your claims of proving me wrong are founded on ignorance of the truth.

    I haven't been proven wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    What you've proven was that when someone throws rocks at agents on the US side of the border, lethal force is justified (something I never disagreed with)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    You've shown that border agents can, in certain circumstances, use lethal force against someone on the Mexican side or the broder. (Again, something I never disagreed with)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    What you haven't shown is that border agents can use lethal force agianst someone throwing rocks from the Mexican side of the border. (Which is what I'm arguing)
    WHICH I proved they can. SEVERAL times.

    Let's review, since you seemed to have missed it, repeatedly.

    NEAR MADERO — U.S. Border Patrol agents opened fire on an undisclosed number of people throwing beer bottles at one of the agency’s boats Monday morning.

    Border Patrol officials said agents opened fire from their boat on the Rio Grande close to the Chimney Park RV Resort near Madero about 8 a.m. Monday.

    Local Border Patrol spokesman Joe Treviño said no injuries were reported during the incident — either from the gunfire or the objects thrown at the agents.

    Rocks, bottles and other objects were used during the attack, said Treviño, who emphasized that agents continue to investigate the incident.
    With us so far?

    Border Patrol fires shots into Mexico
    Border Patrol fires shots into Mexico | shots, border, fires - Now - TheMonitor.com

    Tonight we've learned that's not true. Border Patrol says there is no such policy that says agents can't shoot into Mexico.
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...r-high-19.html

    Get it yet Tucker? You have been proven, wrong.

    Oh and since the BP Doesn't allow "Warning shots" they shoot into Mexico to kill.
    Last edited by Renae; 06-14-10 at 10:56 AM.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



  5. #195
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    Re: Mexico teen killed by US Border Patrol, anger high

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    No. I'm not saying that. That is a strawman.

    My argument is entirely about rocks being thrown over the broder not being a legitimate enough threat to warrant lethal force against someone on the Mexican side of the broder. As range increases, the danger form thrown rocks decreases dramatically. The border agent has the option to retreat a short distance in order to protect themselves.

    If the person throwing rocks chooses to close the distance in order to increase teh efficacy of th erocks, they will have to cross the border. At that point, lethal force is warranted because they are pressing the issue.

    If these were a more effective weapon, then the border agent has every right to shoot over the border, IMO. If these kids were on the Mexican side of th eborder and had pointed a gun or a crossbow, or a bow and arrow or some other weapon where a leisurely saunter backwards would not have been enough to offer protection, then the border agent is fully justified to use lethal force in response.
    That video that was posted though, even showed that at least some of the people throwing rocks were on our side of the border with the BP, but then ran back across when they realized that the BP was pulling out his weapon. But even with him pulling his weapon, they still seemed to be shouting, although granted with that video you couldn't really tell if they were throwing rocks. Along with that, I can't imagine that it would be really easy to just back up to a relatively safer position with a person in tow, especially one who is struggling. Plus the fact that some of the people throwing the rocks didn't seem to have much restraint against coming across to our side of the border anyway, so it would be logical to assume that the rock throwers might have pursued the BP with their rocks even if he had have just backed up.

    There is no way that I would condemn a BP for such a shooting, even into Mexico, when by all accounts given he seems to have been just defending himself. Especially not when you are talking about a border difference of a few feet. From the looks of that video, the kid who got shot was shot within 15 or 20 feet of the BP, maybe closer. And it was clear that someone (couldn't really tell if it was the person shot or someone else) was obviously on our side of the border, but ran back to the other side as the BP started shooting.
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  6. #196
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    Re: Mexico teen killed by US Border Patrol, anger high

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    At least I can admit my mistake.
    I admit mistakes all the time. I also have teh fortitude to actually apologize for making them, especialy if they involve an accusation.

    First you argued that it was dissperportionate force to use a firearm to stop rock throwers and we gave you the case where it was deemed lawful.
    False. My initial post was:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The Mexicans were right to prevent armed foreigners, who had already shot and killed a Mexican national on Mexican soil, from crossing their border.

    They would have been right to shoot them if they had pressed the issue. In fact, since the US border patrol actually shot someone who was on the Mexican side of the border that was not armed with any type of legitimate weapon, they need to be prosecuted. That is an act of war.
    As you can see, the argument involved them being on the Mexican side of the border from the very start. I don't consider rocks thrown at a distance of greater than 20 feet to be a legitimate weapon to warrant lethal force. But I do allow for the caveat that Lethal force is warranted if the perosn is on the US side of the border, due to the fact that this is well-within the Border Guards jurisdiction.

    The clarification about being able to shoot over the border came here (which is the third of fourth post by me in that thread):

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The border guard shot a Mexican National on Mexican soil. It's out of his jurisdiction. He is not authorized to do that unless his life is truly in danger, which it wasn't. If they were shooting, then he would have been authorized to defend himself with lethal force.
    Clearly I was never arguing anything but what I have said I was arguing the whole time. Nothing has changed in my stance.

    Then you lied you ever said that and added the caviat that it also had to be throwing rocks from the other side of the border and Mr V proved that was just as laughably wrong.
    As you can see, the only person lying is you. You are lying about understanding my argument, and you are lying in how you are portraying that argument. Nothing I have said has been proven wrong.

    You were not only dead wrong, you were laughably dead wrong and you still can't admit it despite the evidnce being right in front of you. Goes in spades with your lack of character.
    Me admitting errror just last week:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The more I've thought about it, the more I'm seeing your position. The fact that she's lumping every Israeli Jew into the "GTFO" category is the key to it being racist.

    Jews have always been present in the region, well before the creation of the Israeli state.
    When someone actually proves me wrong, I am totally willing to admit error. I would even be willing to wager that I have done this far mroe often than you have.

    My contention is that your admission of error was merely a prevetantaive measure to keep me form pointing out the error, which you could do nothing to dodge. You still haven't admitted the error that exists in the attacks on my credibility. That can only be admitted through an apology directly tro me for your unfounded accusations.

    By teh way, on the "character" accusation, allow me to add into evidence an apology that I have offered to others due to an error made by me:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Allow me to add my apologies to anyone who was offended by my previous statements, which essentially amounted to a defense of Helen Thomas' comments. In retrospect, I see that her comments were truly reprehensible.

    I should have been more sensitive to how this is an attack on all Israeli Jews, and in retrospect I feel terrible for having defended her comments in any way.

    My sincerest apologies to all who were affected.
    As I thought about my error in that thread, it occured to me that it might have caused offense to otehrs. I added the apology as an additional aspect due to the fact that I felt guilty over the offense that my error may have caused. It may not have been absolutey necessary in that case, for I made no accusations, but I offered it anyway because I felt it was the right thing to do in that case.

    What I did not do was compound the error by repeating it. i.e. Your accusations against me earlier for having "deleted" posts was as unfounded as your accusations now about my character. I do not expect you to have the character to apologize for either of these accusations, but I would be pelasently surprised if you did display that degree of character.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 06-14-10 at 11:40 AM.
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  7. #197
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    Re: Mexico teen killed by US Border Patrol, anger high

    We should shoot more into Mexico.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  8. #198
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    Re: Mexico teen killed by US Border Patrol, anger high

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    We should shoot more into Mexico.
    Yeah - really?

    If someone from within mexico shot across the border to someone in the US - wouldn't it be WRONG?
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  9. #199
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    Re: Mexico teen killed by US Border Patrol, anger high

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Yeah - really?

    If someone from within mexico shot across the border to someone in the US - wouldn't it be WRONG?



    It happens all the time. We usually don't shoot back. coyotes and drug smugglers, along with mexican federalis have fired at border patrol agents.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  10. #200
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    Re: Mexico teen killed by US Border Patrol, anger high

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    It happens all the time. We usually don't shoot back. coyotes and drug smugglers, along with mexican federalis have fired at border patrol agents.
    In any case where the border patrol agents are shot at, I absolutley support their ability to shoot back. If they are not shooting back in these instances, I agree with you that they should be shooting into Mexico more often.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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