Dad Accused of Using Stun Gun on Daughter's Friend Over Naked Photo

Kandahar said:

So let me get this straight: If she had been 18, it would have been perfectly fine, because she'd suddenly "have the experience and maturity to make good decisions" that everyone acquires on their 18th birthday. But since she was 17, she's a child who is incapable of thinking about the consequences...and therefore electroshock to the guy's testicles is the best solution?

(And let's not even go into the fact that the picture was of the 23-year-old guy, not the innocent "child.")

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Actually, I would STILL have a problem with it, but there would be no legal recourse in that case.

reefedjib said:

Sure you do. How can you teach them to be adults, unless you treat them as adults?

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That doesn't mean, developmentally they can HANDLE being adults.

Dav said:

You are confusing issues. Laws are arbitrary; personalities are not. You do not suddenly become capable of better judgement on your 18th birthday; it's a slower process, and different for everyone. Ignoring legality, we can't just assume that someone is too immature to make sexual decisions knowing only that they are 17.

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Nor can we assume that someone is mature enough to make sexual decisions when they turn 18. I agree that it is an indiviual process. That's why when teens I work with say, "well, when I'm 18, my parents won't be telling me what to do", I laugh at them and tell them that 18 is pretty irrelevant. One's maturity and developmental level is what's relevant.

texmaster said:

Wow. You don't see an issue with teenagers sending a receiving naked picutures of themselves?

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Should everything people have an issue with be illegal? The father should have worked on being a better parent, then he would not be facing multiple felonies.

Dav said:

That's what's so funny about this... when kids get drunk or high or do something dangerous, well, kids will be kids. When they show each other their body parts, it's an outrage that must be stopped.

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Actually, as far as I'm concerned, both issues are equally problematic. In my experience, mot would agree with this. Might be a good idea for you to not make assumptions about that.

Just another faux moral panic created by old people who can't stand these crazy kids and their darned cell phones and technology. If they did it as a kid it's ok, otherwise its a danger to society. It happens all the time, always has and probably always will.

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Just another issue that teens who have trouble seeing the consequences of their behaviors dismiss. Fairly typical of the age.

Jerry said:

I think the people of California set the age of consent so high because they realize how unprepared their children are until the older ages. I would've expected to see an age of consent of 18 exist in ultra conservative states as that's the stereotype, but then it follows that a conservative family would raise more responsible children, better able to handle the world earlier on. Children from Liberal homes tend to seek sex about 2 years earlier than children from Conservative homes. Here in SD the age of consent for sex is 14, and marriage with parental consent at 16. Our children have a longer leash because they're more responsible. CA knows that their failed public education system and Progressive policies retard their children development, so let them decide what their age of consent is for themselves. If you don't like it, don't live there.

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See, I think that in conservative homes, the level of sheltering prevents development and maturity, making it so they would be unprepared to deal with situations, whereas in liberal homes, allowing for experimentation and less strictmess teaches more self-reliance. Perhaps the lower level of age of consent is more about denial.

CaptainCourtesy said:

That doesn't mean, developmentally they can HANDLE being adults.

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Is there a developmental shortcoming that would prevent them from handle being adults at say age 16? I am sure we can find stories of the older sister of a family who has lost their mother stepping up to the plate and being an adult. It is a matter of responsibility assumed, I would say.

Dav said:

But the failure is in seeing it as something that is never acceptable. If they send it to someone they hardly know, or they don't realize the potential consequences, then sure. If it's a mature 16 or 17 year old sending to someone they really know well and trust, there's really nothing I see wrong. Like teen sex, it's not inherently bad, but can be depending on the situation.

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Of course it depends on the situation, but someone you trust, doesn't mean someone you will always trust. People break up, and with the impulsivity and over-emotionality of teens, pictures such as these can be used after the break up. It's dangerous no matter what, even though there are degrees.

And frankly, even where it is a bad thing, I'd rather my child sext than drink or drive without a license or do drugs or actually have sex or any number of things that it's often considered normal young adult behavior.

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No one is arguing comparisons. The issue is whether this is a problem onto itself.

I love statistics. They're so fun.

You know, just like he tried to somehow suggest that conservatives are a bunch of teen pregnancy fiends let me show using similar dumb logic and his own statistics how its apparent liberals love to have abortions:

1. New York
2. New Jersey
3. Nevada
4. Delaware
5. Connecticut
6. California
7. Hawaii
8. Maryland
9. Florida
10. Rhode Island

I see a lot of Liberal states on there killing a bunch of potential babies.

Oh, and more to the point that Jerry was making...

While California may not be in the top 10, it is #1 in the total amount of teen pregnancies. Not being in the top 10 doesn't matter to much when you're still topping the total number.

reefedjib said:

Is there a developmental shortcoming that would prevent them from handle being adults at say age 16? I am sure we can find stories of the older sister of a family who has lost their mother stepping up to the plate and being an adult. It is a matter of responsibility assumed, I would say.

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Developmentally, our brains do not fully develop until we are in our early 20's. prior to that the parts of the brain that control impulsivity/decision-making, and emotions are still developing. This is why teens tend to do more risk taking behavior, and react more emotionally.impulsively, rather than rationally to things. Are there anecdotal stories that show that young people can handle certain situations? Sure. But overall, with research, including MRI brain scans, teens are less capable of managing adult-like scenarios than those whose brains have fully developed.

CaptainCourtesy said:

Actually, as far as I'm concerned, both issues are equally problematic. In my experience, mot would agree with this. Might be a good idea for you to not make assumptions about that.

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Drugs and alcohol present an actual physical danger that is not present with sexting.

Just another issue that teens who have trouble seeing the consequences of their behaviors dismiss. Fairly typical of the age.

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It's a stupid and pointless thing to do, and it often has negative consequences. And those negative consequences are increased with turning it from a stupid decision to a moral panic. Imagine some naive 13-year-old girl, in a moment of stupidity, took a picture of her private parts with her cell and sent them to a guy she liked. Imagine then that the asshole who received these pictures then sent it to all of his friends, who sent it to all of their friends, until the whole school was aware of these pictures. This is bad enough, and the result of her stupidity; something she should have been warned about, and should learn from. Now imagine that instead of pressing charges against the boy for distributing child pornography (which is exactly what it is), authorities instead turn their attention to the GIRL. Not only is she being called a whore by her school-aged peers, but her school suspends her, her parents ground her, and adults around her in general, instead of providing comfort from her asshole peers, seem to blame the whole thing on her and punish her even further. What would such a girl do? For the girl that this actually happened to, the answer was hanging herself: ‘Sexting’ bullying cited in teen girl’s suicide - TODAY People

And disgustingly enough, people are still blaming her death on sexting itself, as if it was justified to punish her for doing something whose only harm is that it is self-punishing.

Frankly, this talk of "people under 18 being unable to make and handle mature decisions" makes me laugh.

Most people OVER the age of 18 cant make or handle mature decisions, yet we dont endeavor to protect them from themselves lest we be accused of trying to institute a "nanny state." A rather "do as I say, not as I do" sort of situation.

Maturity and ability to handle adult situations is dependent on the individual and less on the age. I've known 14 year olds that could handle decisions and situations that a 30 year old would have ducked away from and yeah that's probably the exception rather than the rule. But the point is there's no reason to try and insulate younger people from bad decisions and consequences or else they dont learn the severity of consequences for their adult lives.

I'm all in favor of legislation that protects young people from being manipulated by skeezy old men....but there are some MASSIVE double standards. It's always "we must protect young women!" But no one seems real concerned about older women manipulating young men into sex. We also dont seem to consider it a problem worth legislation if a man manipulates a grown woman into sex. The moral of the story seems to be "You only matter until you hit 18." As a point of interest, AOC is California is 18 and enforcement is often spotty because parents use it to get rid of boyfriends they dont like, even with the +/- 3 years allowance.


We have a lot of double standards and odd expectations about gender and sexuality. This is doubly frustrating as a man because you often end up on the short end. I've worked with children before and I loved the job, but I had to quit because I was tired of people looking at me funny and whispering behind my back asking my bosses if I looked at any of the children funny or had a record. Men around young women or girls are automatically treated as potential rapists.

CaptainCourtesy said:

Developmentally, our brains do not fully develop until we are in our early 20's. prior to that the parts of the brain that control impulsivity/decision-making, and emotions are still developing. This is why teens tend to do more risk taking behavior, and react more emotionally.impulsively, rather than rationally to things. Are there anecdotal stories that show that young people can handle certain situations? Sure. But overall, with research, including MRI brain scans, teens are less capable of managing adult-like scenarios than those whose brains have fully developed.

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It seems to me it is a situation of "use the muscle to strengthen the muscle". Kids that don't achieve some independence in their decision making are not going to develop the parts of the brain that control impulsivity/decision-making, and emotions. Once they are into college and holding a job is when this area really develops. Don't see why we couldn't start younger.

Dav said:

And disgustingly enough, people are still blaming her death on sexting itself, as if it was justified to punish her for doing something whose only harm is that it is self-punishing.

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Should probably add to this. Sexting is not self-punishing, it just has potential to be used as ammo for OTHER assholes to punish you with. If we're going to crack down on anything which might make you a social reject, we ought to really crack down on nerdiness. Hell, I should be spending the rest of my life in jail.

Anyways, there's not much you can do to stop it. If kids know the risk, and choose to take it, that's their business. Frankly, I see nothing wrong with a teen who knows that she is mature "sexting" with a boyfriend that she's sure she can trust. If he turns out to be an asshole, that's his fault entirely.


EDIT: And if I had a nickel for every slutty picture of some classmate that has been posted on Facebook, I'd be a rich man. Yet nobody seems to really care about that kind of stuff around here. Maybe we're doing something right that the 13-year-old girl's town was not.

Redress said:

There has to be a line somewhere. Yes, 18 is an arbitrary spot for it to be, but so would any other age of majority.

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Yet 17 year olds are old enough to join the military and die for their country.
I suppose it takes less "maturity" to be trained with weapons so you can kill people while being shot at, than to look at a text-message image of a penis.

reefedjib said:

That has nothing to do with my point.

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Um, yes it does. I'm not necessarily behind the point that texmaster is trying to make because I think most of the kids involved with this are in their mid-to-late teens, and some are just months from legal adulthood, but I was showing how you can't infer the prescriptive from the descriptive. It was a criticism of the style of your argument, not the actual substance. The style was logically fallacious.

I married my 1st wife when we were 17 and 23. I don't find that to be offensive in the least. We were married for 13 years. We have two grown kids. I didn't have a phone that sent pictures.

Dav said:

You fail at statistics... just because a more conservative state has a higher teen pregnancy rate does not mean that it is the conservatives in those states which have the pregnant teens.

And as for "the liberal states of New England tend to make up the predominance of the bottom 10", let's take a look at the actual bottom ten:

41. Iowa
42. Nebraska
43. Massachusetts
44. Wisconsin
45. Utah
46. North Dakota
47. Minnesota
48. Maine
49. Vermont
50. New Hampshire

Bold = deep blue state, Underline = deep red state

3 of 10 is hardly the "predominance". In fact, it's the same as the number of very conservative states on the list. According to Cook PVI, the bluest state - Vermont - and the reddest state - Utah - are both on the list. Maybe that ought to tell you something.

And Jerry was at least right about his state, which is just above the top 10 at #40. But mostly, it looks like you can't determine things like teen pregnancy by the overall ideology of a state.

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Iowa, Wisconsin, and Minnesota are hardly "conservative" states. For that matter, New Hampshire is pretty middle of the road socially. Nebraska and Utah would be the solid red states. So, still more solid blue states in the bottom 10 vs. solid red states in the Top 10.

And I never claimed that it's the perfect method for figuring out why teen pregnancies occur.

But it's statistical in basis (whether you like the outcome or analysis); as opposed to Jerry's "theory" which is nothing more than an assumption with nothing to back it. He may be accurate about his state (and some conservative states in the West); but it doesn't really apply to the conservative states of the South. I've noted many times that this more than likely pairs up with poverty rates - as many of these same states also have some of the highest poverty rates; and frequently suffer in education as well. These likely also get to the fact that these states also line-up quite well with the states that have some of the highest divorce rates. (You'll note I'm going much more in depth here).
List of U.S. states by poverty rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Divorce Rate by state. Definition, graph and map.
High School Graduation Rates in the United States | Table 2

But that expands the question as to why do many so-called conservative states have high divorce rates, high teenage pregnancy rates, low graduation rates, and high poverty rates if these conservative states are supposed to be so good?

Now - I realize that's really for a different thread - but I think that if Jerry wants to assert that conservative states are better for kids and that's why they have lower age of consent laws, how do these stat match up with his argument? I would like to have him back his assertion up with some facts. It's okay to have a theory; but you have to back it up.

I at least have some numbers - like them or not.

Redress said:

There has to be a line somewhere. Yes, 18 is an arbitrary spot for it to be, but so would any other age of majority.

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Yes, the line has to be drawn somewhere. If you draw the line, the distinction should be "She's one year underage, so we'll have a judge give the guy a mild reprimand for this incredibly petty crime." Not, "she's one year underage, so we'll have her father kidnap, sexually assault, and administer electroshock to the guy."

CaptainCourtesy said:

Actually, I would STILL have a problem with it, but there would be no legal recourse in that case.

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Well anyone who sends pictures of their junk is a moronic douchebag, regardless of the respective ages of the parties involved. That doesn't mean it should be illegal, and it certainly doesn't justify a kidnapping and sexual assault.

Kandahar said:

Yes, the line has to be drawn somewhere. If you draw the line, the distinction should be "She's one year underage, so we'll have a judge give the guy a mild reprimand for this incredibly petty crime." Not, "she's one year underage, so we'll have her father kidnap, sexually assault, and administer electroshock to the guy."

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I do not think any one is defending the dads actions.

Redress said:

I do not think any one is defending the dads actions.

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What exactly is the problem anyway? The guy didn't even forward a nude picture of HER to all of his buddies, so the whole argument about teenagers being innocent and delicate flowers who don't understand the ramifications of sexting doesn't even make any sense. The guy sent a nude picture of HIMSELF to her.

Is the real problem that she was exposed to the image of a penis before her 18th birthday?

Kandahar said:

What exactly is the problem anyway? The guy didn't even forward a nude picture of HER to all of his buddies, so the whole argument about teenagers being innocent and delicate flowers who don't understand the ramifications of sexting doesn't even make any sense. The guy sent a nude picture of HIMSELF to her.

Is the real problem that she was exposed to the image of a penis before her 18th birthday?

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The conversation had drifted into the area of "sexting".

Redress said:

The conversation had drifted into the area of "sexting".

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Well as far as I can tell, there weren't any underage people in this story who were doing that.

Kandahar said:

Well as far as I can tell, there weren't any underage people in this story who were doing that.

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Correct. We got theoretical for awhile.