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Hamas not a terrorist group, says Turkey's PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan

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Washnut, the blockade is persecuting the Palestinians, not Hamas. If you think the blockade will somehow stop weapons (a very dim assumption considering there arsenal is as big as ever) into Gaza and will somehow end the conflict, your stupid ass should have built taller walls.




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First who the heck are you to call me a stupid a**. We will let the moderators address that if they are not biased.

Next, you convieniently forget when it suits you that Hamas is the government that the Gazans elected to represent them. So not sure how you seperate the two. I do not support the blockade and would like a better solution. I have not heard anything on your side that allows for a lifting of the blockade and having the government of Gaza stop unprovoked attacks on civilians ( which no one protests) and the return of a kidnapped soldier that you like to forget about.
 
So your saying the PKK would exist even if it wasn't for there oppression to begin with?


I'm saying that Turkey's actions in no way justifies the existence of the PKK nor does it cause them to carry out their murderous acts. Turkey didn't create the PKK radical Kurds created the PKK. By your standard the U.S. government is responsible for the creation of AQ.

In fact the PKK started as a political parliamentary party

No it didn't, it started out as a terrorist organization in the mid 70s:

Activities

During its establishment in the mid 1970s, amid violent clashes in the whole of Turkey, the organization used classic terrorism methods, such as the failed assassination of Mehmet Celal Bucak as a propaganda-of-the-deed.[22]After the 1980 military coup, the organization developed into a paramilitary organization using resources it acquired in Bekaa valleyin part of ex-Syrian-controlled Lebanon. After 1984, PKK began to use Maoist theory of people's war.[40][41]There are three phases in this theory. The militant base during the initial years was coming from different sources, so the first two phases were diffused to each other.
[edit] 1978-1984

In the first phase (1978–1984), the PKK tried to gain the support of the Kurdish population. It attacked the machinery of government and distributed propaganda in the region. PKK tactics were based on ambush, sabotage, riots, protests, and demonstrations against the Turkish government. PKK has also been accused of violent attacks on individual civilians or residential areas (Kurds and non-Kurds alike), who refused to co-operate with the PKK or were suspected of collaborating with the Turkish authorities. During these years, the PKK fought a turf war against other predominantly Kurdish organisations in Turkey. The PKK effectively used the prison force to gain appeal among the population.[42][43] In the whole Turkey, this period was characterized by violent clashes which culminated in the 1980 military coup.

During this time, the organization argued that its violent actions were explained by the need to defend Kurds in the context of what it considered as the massive cultural suppression of Kurdish identity (including the 1983 Turkish Language Act Ban) and cultural rights carried out by other governments of the region.
[edit] 1984-1999

In the second phase (1984–1999), which followed the return of civilian rule in 1983, escalating attacks were made on the government's military and vital institutions all over the country. The objective was to destabilise Turkish authority through a long, low-intensity confrontation. In addition to skirmishing with Turkish military and police forces and local village guards, the PKK has conducted suicide bombing on government and police installations, as well as at local tourist sites.[44] Kidnapping and assassination against government officials and Kurdish tribal leaders who were named as puppets of the state were performed as well. Widespread sabotages were continued from the first stage. PKK performed kidnapping western tourists, primarily in Istanbul but also at different resorts. Its actions have taken place mainly in Turkey and against Turkish targets in other countries, although it has on occasions co-operated with other Kurdish nationalist paramilitary groups in neighboring states, such as Iraq and Iran.[45] PKK has also attacked Turkish diplomatic and commercial facilities across Western Europe. In effect, the Turkish state has led a series of counter-insurgency operations against the PKK, accompanied by political measures, starting with an explicit denunciation of separatism in the 1982 Constitution, and including proclamation of the state of emergency in various PKK-controlled territories starting in 1983 (when the military relinquished political control to the civilians). This series of administrative reforms against terrorism included in 1985 the creation of village guard system by the then prime minister Turgut Özal who is of partial Kurdish descent.

PKK members in Sweden came into conflict with the Swedish government, and in 1986 PKK became the first main suspect for the assassination of Olof Palme. The illegal investigation of these suspicion led to the Ebbe Carlsson affair.

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, in an effort to win increased support from the Kurdish peasantry, the PKK altered its leftist secular ideology to better accommodate and accept Islamic beliefs. The group also abandoned its previous strategy of attacking Kurdish civilians, focusing instead on government and tourist targets.[46] In its campaign, the organization has been accused of carrying out atrocities against both Turkish and Kurdish civilians and its actions have been criticised by human rights groups such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. Actions of the Turkish state in the past have also been criticised by these same groups.

All in all, this low intensity conflict which has lasted more than thirty years has had a number of effects in the Turkish territory.
[edit] 1999-current

In the third phase (1999-current), after capture of Öcalan, according to Maoist theory of people's war claims that the conventional fighting should be established to seize cities, overthrow the government and take control of the country. This stage has never been achieved. In effect, after the capture of Öcalan, activities of the organization never reached previous levels.

Since 1999, the organization began to use improvised explosive devices rather than direct confrontation.

Kurdistan Workers' Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
which enjoyed much Kurdish support.

Prove it, the PKK never got wide Kurdish support. The vast vast majority of Kurdish people supported peaceful coexistence and cooperation with their neighbors, compromise, and liberal democracy not revolutionary communist terrorism.
 
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Well if the Palestinians/Hamas laid their weapons down there would be peace, if Israel laid their weapons down Israel would cease to exist.
 
First who the heck are you to call me a stupid a**. We will let the moderators address that if they are not biased.

Next, you convieniently forget when it suits you that Hamas is the government that the Gazans elected to represent them. So not sure how you seperate the two. I do not support the blockade and would like a better solution. I have not heard anything on your side that allows for a lifting of the blockade and having the government of Gaza stop unprovoked attacks on civilians ( which no one protests) and the return of a kidnapped soldier that you like to forget about.

Oh jesus christ. We have another one. Im waiting for the pro-terrorist accusations now. :roll:
I was also referring to Israel when i said "your stupid ass" unless its you personally building the walls.

Who the hell is saying Hamas doesn't deserve to be blown the hell out? Nobody here buddy. I've stated repeatedly the Gaza offensive was needed, was required and was vital in stemming the short term aggression of Hamas. However, the current blockade has done nothing but cause further instability, and it is creating a humanitarian concern which could be avoided. Hamas poses no more of a threat to Israel without the blockade. Its a pointless policy towards Gaza which isn't working, neither is the Cuban embargo, end of.
 
I'm saying that Turkey's actions in no way justifies the existence of the PKK nor does it cause them to carry out their murderous acts. Turkey didn't create the PKK radical Kurds created the PKK. By your standard the U.S. government is responsible for the creation of AQ.

And radical Kurds where created as a result of years of Turkish oppression which spread hatred in the Kurdish community which continues to exist today,



No it didn't, it started out as a terrorist organization in the mid 70s:

It transformed itself to a paramilitary organization, it was initially a branch of a political party and this transformation took place under Abdullah Ocalan with communist support.

Prove it, the PKK never got wide Kurdish support. The vast vast majority of Kurdish people supported peaceful coexistence and cooperation with their neighbors, compromise, and liberal democracy not revolutionary communist terrorism.

I didn't say it got a majority of the Kurdish support, but it did enjoy relatively high numbers of support from Kurds nonetheless - mainly from Northern Iraq, where they launch there attacks. When the Americans and Turks where trying to root out bases in Kirkuk, the Kurdish communities would refuse to name the names of the leaders and the location of the bases despite complete anonymity. It's like a damn Sicilian community when the people just dont talk.
Its the way of the world. The only way foward is the Turkish Kurdish Democratic initiative.
It has already reduced its support.
 
Much like the PKK is a product of Turkey's policies, Hamas too is a product of Israeli policies. This whole "i love perfect Israel" rhetoric aside, we need to be rational and realize that Israel DOES have major flaws with its policies against Gaza, and it needs to be addressed. The population in Gaza is highly dissatisfied. Now, they wont be fully content until they grab East Jerusalem, but they wont need the likes of Hamas in the event the unjust blockade is lifted. The election of Hamas reflects this discontent against Israeli policies. Nobody votes for terrorist governments unless they are pinned against the wall. The security concerns of lifting the blockade is legit; my point is, its nothing normal border controls cannot contain. Israel restricts the entrance of many basic commodities. "Aid" is not enough, it should not make you feel good about yourselves because you let some through. A nation has the right to achieve its own economic goals without interference.
Well if the people of Gaza signed a peace agreement along with Israel complying to 90 percent of their request back during the Clinton peace accord, there would be peace but, Arafat refused and Hamas picked up the mantle and is now running with it. Israel giving up land along with 90 percent of the palistinian demands, i would venture to say Palistine would have made out and would not be in a humantarian crisis currently. That said, yes Israel has flaws in it's policies and as you quoted it's becausee of Hamas, so does Hamas act outside the rules of war as to get israel to behave in such a fashion. Hamas and it's policies perhasp is to trap israel into making such decision as to gain victory in the eyes of the world in a PR war by proxy.
 
And radical Kurds where created as a result of years of Turkish oppression which spread hatred in the Kurdish community which continues to exist today,

Oppression doesn't create terrorism:

One of the best known, most comprehensive, and most often cited of these efforts is a profile developed by Russell and Miller (1977110) based on a compilation of published data regarding over 350 individual terrorist cadres and leaders across 18 different Palestinian, Japanese, German, Italian, Turkish, Irish, Spanish, Iranian, Argentina, Brazilian, and Uruguayan terrorist groups active during the 1966-1976 time span. The prototype derived from their composite described a young (22-25), unmarried male who is an urban resident, from a middle-upper class family, has some university education and probably held an extremist political philosophy.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/208552.pdf

Most terrorists are middle class and relatively well educated, which hardly speaks to overt oppression. And once again oppression does not justify terrorism, there are legitimate ways and illegitimate ways to go about obtaining ones goals, the oppressed who use the legitimate ways are heroic and freedom fighters and those who use illegitimate means to obtain their ends are criminals and terrorists.


It transformed itself to a paramilitary organization, it was initially a branch of a political party and this transformation took place under Abdullah Ocalan with communist support.

It was never a non-terrorist party it was never a branch of a non-terrorist political party, radicals broke off of existing non-violent left leaning parties and formed a coalition of violent terrorists.

I didn't say it got a majority of the Kurdish support, but it did enjoy relatively high numbers of support from Kurds nonetheless - mainly from Northern Iraq, where they launch there attacks.

Prove it.

When the Americans and Turks where trying to root out bases in Kirkuk, the Kurdish communities would refuse to name the names of the leaders and the location of the bases despite complete anonymity. It's like a damn Sicilian community when the people just dont talk.
Its the way of the world. The only way foward is the Turkish Kurdish Democratic initiative.
It has already reduced its support.

The Kurdish people have already been given the opportunity to have an autonomous country of their own, they rejected it and instead opted to maintain ties with the central Iraqi government. The people have spoken, the PKK is SOL.
 
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Well if the people of Gaza signed a peace agreement along with Israel complying to 90 percent of their request back during the Clinton peace accord, there would be peace but, Arafat refused and Hamas picked up the mantle and is now running with it. Israel giving up land along with 90 percent of the palistinian demands, i would venture to say Palistine would have made out and would not be in a humantarian crisis currently. That said, yes Israel has flaws in it's policies and as you quoted it's becausee of Hamas, so does Hamas act outside the rules of war as to get israel to behave in such a fashion. Hamas and it's policies perhasp is to trap israel into making such decision as to gain victory in the eyes of the world in a PR war by proxy.

You do know the Palestinians will never be fully content? I realize that. I also respect the fact that East Jerusalem has become very much part of Israel. Therefore, yes, they do reserve the right to keep it. But the blockade? Still useless.
 
Oppression doesn't create terrorism:

Doesn't it? The oppression of a paticular ideological group doesn't cause the radicalism of that sect, in many instances?

Most terrorists are middle class and relatively well educated, which hardly speaks to overt oppression. And once again oppression does not justify terrorism, there are legitimate ways and illegitimate ways to go about obtaining ones goals, the oppressed who use the legitimate ways are heroic and freedom fighters and those who use illegitimate means to obtain their ends are criminals and terrorists.

If they are educated or not is irrelevant to me. Im not saying it justified terrorism otherwise id probably not waste my time in the army.


It was never a non-terrorist party it was never a branch of a non-terrorist political party, radicals broke off of existing non-violent left leaning parties and formed a coalition of violent terrorists.

Read up on DTP.

Prove it.

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Kurds show coded support for PKK
In this part of Turkey Amine Yigit is not alone in losing a loved one to the PKK.

The south-eastern flank of the country is a Kurdish heartland where most of the nation's 20 million Kurds live.

Kurdish political leaders will tell you (in private) that at least 80% of their people support the rebels and are proud if a family member is "living in the mountains."


The Kurdish people have already been given the opportunity to have an autonomous country of their own, they rejected it and instead opted to maintain ties with the central Iraqi government. The people have spoken, the PKK is SOL.

Really? Please tell me. What steps have the Iraqi government in Kirkuk taken to stop PKK activities?
 
Hitler was legally appointed to chancelor, too. Should we have just left him alone? The only reason Hamas isn't doing what Hitler did, is because they can't.




Hamas has declared war upon Israel. Israel has every right to defend herself, however she sees fit. If the Palestinians really wanted peace, there would be peace. But, the election of Hamas proves that the Palestinians aren't interested in peace, only the destruction of Israel.
So if some crazy republicans scream "Lets go to war with (blah blah blah doesn't matter)!!!".. does the defending side get to have complete control over all repups with threat of instant death always around some bend close by?
 
You do know the Palestinians will never be fully content? I realize that. I also respect the fact that East Jerusalem has become very much part of Israel. Therefore, yes, they do reserve the right to keep it. But the blockade? Still useless.
I would tend to think that any strategy or negotiations at this time or in the future will be useless as long as Hamas is in charge. The shame of it all is that the Palistinian people are more closely related to Israelis than they are with Arabs or even Semites.
 
I just want to point out that if Turkey's PM is signaling a new shift away from western values, then we got an even more unstable situation in the middle east - making the U.S.-Israeli tie even more critical (and Obama/Netanyahu seems to be loosening that tie)...especially with Iran going out of control.

And we saw Egypt temporarily opening the tunnels with Gaza, in response to the flotilla incidence.

Israel may become the last country in the middle east sharing America's values. Cooperation between Netanyahu and Obama is vital (unless, that is, Obama has only 2 years left :wink: ) ...:beam:
:lol:
 
Actually the #$%@$ ing up of the Israeli US relations is cause of Bibi DUMBASS Netanyahu
You could not find anyone stupider than this sack of sh*t just sayin ^^

Also who gives a flying fudge cycle about Turky? What do they provide us other than some cheap summer vacation places to check out?

The deal is Hamas has it in their "constitution" or w/e you want to call it that Israel must parish, thats even beyond an act of war, its just about saying this nation is being founded on the end goal of getting rid of Israel, its like the crusades but Palestinian style..
no offense to anyone, but its typical Europe to mistake tyranny with Democracy :roll: ( I may of made a fail there xD )
Cause only In France can you pass a direct anti democratic law :roll:
 
Also who gives a flying fudge cycle about Turky? What do they provide us other than some cheap summer vacation places to check out?

Anyone who has a interest in the ME should care about Turkey and its actions and the impact it will have on the ME.

It is a member of NATO and has access to EU's President and economic ties. It is closer to Europe I would argue than Israel is.
It is close to the Arab nations surrounding Israel and also Iran/Syria and more importantly Russia/China.

Turkey has moved away from the West and seems to me to be moving into the Iranian axis which would spell danger to Israel.
I kinda admire Turkey's guts, its moving itself into a strategic position of being the go-between guy between US/West and the Arab nations.
 
Anyone who has a interest in the ME should care about Turkey and its actions and the impact it will have on the ME.

It is a member of NATO and has access to EU's President and economic ties. It is closer to Europe I would argue than Israel is.
It is close to the Arab nations surrounding Israel and also Iran/Syria and more importantly Russia/China.

Turkey has moved away from the West and seems to me to be moving into the Iranian axis which would spell danger to Israel.
I kinda admire Turkey's guts, its moving itself into a strategic position of being the go-between guy between US/West and the Arab nations.

Granted you are correct :)
and its true that i forgot thous facts and i should care.
 
Anyone who has a interest in the ME should care about Turkey and its actions and the impact it will have on the ME.

It is a member of NATO and has access to EU's President and economic ties. It is closer to Europe I would argue than Israel is.
It is close to the Arab nations surrounding Israel and also Iran/Syria and more importantly Russia/China.

Turkey has moved away from the West and seems to me to be moving into the Iranian axis which would spell danger to Israel.
I kinda admire Turkey's guts, its moving itself into a strategic position of being the go-between guy between US/West and the Arab nations.

I completely agree with you(Without of course admiring their "guts" (=becoming an Islamist theocracy)).

Besides the support for the terrorist organization of Hamas, and the apparent connection to the IHH, Turkey seems to have became a full and titled Islamist nation.
One of its major news sites have uploaded pictures the IHH members took from the ship where they're seen on the Mavi Marmara beating soldiers that are not fighting back, lying on the ground and bleeding, and the title of the article is "Tears of the commandos" as if to mock the Israeli soldiers.
Another major newspaper in Turkey has published an article asking if Israel is behind the PKK attack on Turkey.
That's outright incitement, the kind we're used to see coming from Iran and Hezbollah's Lebanon.
 
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I completely agree with you(Without of course admiring their "guts" (=becoming an Islamist theocracy)).

Besides the support for the terrorist organization of Hamas, and the apparent connection to the IHH, Turkey seems to have became a full and titled Islamist nation.
One of its major news sites have uploaded pictures the IHH members took from the ship where they're seen on the Mavi Marmara beating soldiers that are not fighting back, lying on the ground and bleeding, and the title of the article is "Tears of the commandos" as if to mock the Israeli soldiers.
Another major newspaper in Turkey has published an article asking if Israel is behind the PKK attack on Turkey.
That's outright incitement, the kind we're used to see coming from Iran and Hezbollah's Lebanon.

Israel should have seen this coming and I do put a bit of the blame in a way on Israel's shoulders.
It played right into the hand of the Islamists in Turkey.

The military and secularists were the most Pro Israel in Turkey but what Turk is actually going to have the guts to defend Israel when its soldiers have killed their nationals? This incident had given those in Turkey who want to move away from Israel the excuse to do so and no one can stop it without seeming disloyal. Israel fell into a trap.
I admire Turkey because I do think it is a model country for Muslims, it hasn't let go of its Muslim heritage and has placed itself in a position of being a major player in the region.
Its influence over Iran and the Arab public will affect decisions as will their friendship with China/Russia.

Israel stands more to lose from Turkey severing ties as an ally than Turkey has of losing them. Sure Israel sold weapons but Turkey can turn to the Saudis for that.
It will be interesting to see where Turkey/Israel go from here. Either way whatever side Turkey chooses, it will have impact on the balance of power in the region
 
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Israel should have seen this coming and I do put a bit of the blame in a way on Israel's shoulders.
Israel couldn't see this coming.
We in Israel are used to see peaceful activists in the form of peaceful activists, we're not used to see people who claim to be peaceful activists and turn out to be jihadist militants.
The military and secularists were the most Pro Israel in Turkey but what Turk is actually going to have the guts to defend Israel when its soldiers have killed their nationals?
If a British citizen gets killed in Afghanistan after he tries to stab an American soldier, would you back him up?
I wouldn't back a citizen of my country up if he'd try to murder a Turksih soldier.
This incident had given those in Turkey who want to move away from Israel the excuse to do so and no one can stop it without seeming disloyal.
I agree.
Israel fell into a trap.
Any other country would as well.
I admire Turkey because I do think it is a model country for Muslims, it hasn't let go of its Muslim heritage and has placed itself in a position of being a major player in the region.
No more than Iran really, they've given up on any Western value and are now a bunch of theocrats and terrorist-supporters.
Its influence over Iran and the Arab public will affect decisions as will their friendship with China/Russia.
Will negatively affect decisions from the Western prespective.
We've already seen what they and Brazil did with Iran.
Israel stands more to lose from Turkey severing ties as an ally than Turkey has of losing them. Sure Israel sold weapons but Turkey can turn to the Saudis for that.
It will be interesting to see where Turkey/Israel go from here.
Well here you're absolutely wrong.
The percentage of Turkey in the Israeli economy is nearly half than that of Israel's in the Turkish economy.
They make one point something of our economy and we make two point something of theirs.
 
Israel couldn't see this coming.
We in Israel are used to see peaceful activists in the form of peaceful activists, we're not used to see people who claim to be peaceful activists and turn out to be jihadist militants.
If a British citizen gets killed in Afghanistan after he tries to stab an American soldier, would you back him up?
I wouldn't back a citizen of my country up if he'd try to murder a Turksih soldier.
I agree.
Any other country would as well.
No more than Iran really, they've given up on any Western value and are now a bunch of theocrats and terrorist-supporters.
Will negatively affect decisions from the Western prespective.
We've already seen what they and Brazil did with Iran.
Well here you're absolutely wrong.
The percentage of Turkey in the Israeli economy is nearly half than that of Israel's in the Turkish economy.

Really? You couldn't tell Turkey was moving away from Israel and any major incident would have profound impact on the alliance?

Perhaps but Iran is still a player in the region, especially with the wonderful helpful boost UK and US gave them by removing Saddam.

And you don't think Turkey will get investment from elsewhere? Turkey is not the same country it was 50 years ago, I would argue it is rediscovering its Ottoman roots and using its Islamic history to influence Muslim countries (successfully). Turkey not held down by the Persian/Arab or Israeli/Arab rivalries and history, can do things for the United States in the ME that Israel simply can’t. I would put Turkey as more important in the ME than Israel especially seeing US is still bogged down in Afghanistan and Iraq.
 
Really? You couldn't tell Turkey was moving away from Israel and any major incident would have profound impact on the alliance?
I thought you were reffering to the flotila raid with that statement?
Perhaps but Iran is still a player in the region, especially with the wonderful helpful boost UK and US gave them by removing Saddam.
Iran is a player, sure, but a player of the axis.
And you don't think Turkey will get investment from elsewhere?
I know they'll get an investment from elsewhere, just like Israel, but my point was that they are losing more from this disconnection than Israel does.
Turkey is not the same country it was 50 years ago, I would argue it is rediscovering its Ottoman roots and using its Islamic history to influence Muslim countries (successfully). Turkey not held down by the Persian/Arab or Israeli/Arab rivalries and history, can do things for the United States in the ME that Israel simply can’t.
Perhaps, perhaps not.
I can't see the relavency, I'm stating that they're becoming an Islamic theocracy and hence a threat to the Western world.
I would put Turkey as more important in the ME than Israel especially seeing US is still bogged down in Afghanistan and Iraq.
I'd argue against it, they may have a hand with Iran and the rest of the dictatorships, but Israel is the only Western nation in the ME.
 
I'd argue against it, they may have a hand with Iran and the rest of the dictatorships, but Israel is the only Western nation in the ME.

I'd argue against that.
 
http://new.music.yahoo.com/blogs/st...Fortunate Homosexual Man' - Stop The Presses!

I care more about Ricky Martin being gay than this. Turkey Israel relations will be heated, Erdogan will loose the elections now surrounding this new hype about a new CHP leadership, the Kemalists take over, 10-15 years from now Jews will be calling us brothers again, or better yet the military flips out and kills the fascists in power. Israeli-Turkey military relations remain the same. Government relations with Israel is bad but i dont think people here realize how seperate the army is from the government in Turkey, and how the Turkey's military still favours Israel strongly and is not with Erdogan on this one. The military has a good relationship with the IDF, wants to keep it that way cause the Jews make cool weapons, and still maintains one of the strictest punishments for anti-Semitism within its establishment. Try insulting Israel in the Turkish army, you'll find yourself doing community service in no time.

No doubt they are not as involved in politics as they once where, but do you really think if Kemalism is put at stake anymore they will just sit back and let it happen? Times like this im glad we have a deep state.
 
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