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Thread: Hamas not a terrorist group, says Turkey's PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan

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    Re: Hamas not a terrorist group, says Turkey's PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan

    Quote Originally Posted by MetalGear View Post
    Much like the PKK is a product of Turkey's policies, Hamas too is a product of Israeli policies. This whole "i love perfect Israel" rhetoric aside, we need to be rational and realize that Israel DOES have major flaws with its policies against Gaza, and it needs to be addressed. The population in Gaza is highly dissatisfied. Now, they wont be fully content until they grab East Jerusalem, but they wont need the likes of Hamas in the event the unjust blockade is lifted. The election of Hamas reflects this discontent against Israeli policies. Nobody votes for terrorist governments unless they are pinned against the wall. The security concerns of lifting the blockade is legit; my point is, its nothing normal border controls cannot contain. Israel restricts the entrance of many basic commodities. "Aid" is not enough, it should not make you feel good about yourselves because you let some through. A nation has the right to achieve its own economic goals without interference.
    Your whole comment is flawed since you've drawn the false assumption that the blockade came before the election of Hamas.
    See the part I've marked in your post.
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    Re: Hamas not a terrorist group, says Turkey's PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan

    Quote Originally Posted by gunner View Post
    What i,m trying to highlight is their is no policy shift from the Palestinians by voting Hamas.
    Paul
    Good point. The strong support for genocide of Jews has remained a constant.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Hamas not a terrorist group, says Turkey's PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan

    Quote Originally Posted by MetalGear View Post
    Much like the PKK is a product of Turkey's policies, Hamas too is a product of Israeli policies. This whole "i love perfect Israel" rhetoric aside, we need to be rational and realize that Israel DOES have major flaws with its policies against Gaza, and it needs to be addressed. The population in Gaza is highly dissatisfied. Now, they wont be fully content until they grab East Jerusalem, but they wont need the likes of Hamas in the event the unjust blockade is lifted. The election of Hamas reflects this discontent against Israeli policies. Nobody votes for terrorist governments unless they are pinned against the wall. The security concerns of lifting the blockade is legit; my point is, its nothing normal border controls cannot contain. Israel restricts the entrance of many basic commodities. "Aid" is not enough, it should not make you feel good about yourselves because you let some through. A nation has the right to achieve its own economic goals without interference.
    A country also has the right to defend it's citizens. Starting a comment with your "I love a perfect Israel" comment is so weak it is pathetic. Maybe in Denmark, the citizens would be fine if your neighbors lobbed rockets into your cities and would do nothing.

    How has the agreement to keep Southern Lebanon free of Hezbelloh missles gone. And that is with so called peacekeepers from the UN.

    Lastly, I am not sure if many of the folks on this site are simply mininformed or worse, but Hezbellah, Iran, Hamas etc see getting back to the pre 1967 borders as a first step in their goal to what they want which is one state. This would call for the deportation of Jews who did not live there before the first world war.

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    Re: Hamas not a terrorist group, says Turkey's PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan

    Quote Originally Posted by MetalGear View Post
    Much like the PKK is a product of Turkey's policies, Hamas too is a product of Israeli policies.
    Man **** that ****. People are responsible for their own actions. The Founding Fathers are the product of U.S. policies, Ghandi is the product of Indian policies, the IRA was the product of Irish policies, and likewise Hamas is the product of Palestinian policies, the PKK is the product of Kurdish policies (only supported by a very small minority btw), and the V.C. was the product of the Vietnamese. When faced with persecution and oppression (real or perceived) there are ways to legitimately go about reaching your goals and there are illegitimate ways, the first is to attempt every peaceful avenue to obtaining your goals until they are exhausted; such as, the Founding Fathers did through numerous petitions to the British Crown, how Ghandi did through his passive resistance, or how the IRA did prior to Easter Rising by trying to get the crown to pass and enforce the Home Rule Act of 1914, Ghandi was successful without violence, the Irish and the Americans then went on to more drastic measures but did they start off murdering British civilians? No they conducted legitimate military operations, they targeted the enemies military and political leadership, and even with the less legitimate IRA which was to come during "The Troubles" the IRA would phone in bombings ahead of time if they were going to bomb a civilian target; such as, a bank (which was likewise a legitimate targeting of the enemies economy as well). But Hamas, the PKK, and the V.C. never attempted peaceful avenues, refuse any compromise which would lead to a peaceful outcome, and they started off not only through violent means but by specifically targeting civilians for no military strategic value whatsoever, they did it simply to cause terror. That's what separates those terrorists groups from legitimate freedom fighters.
    Last edited by Agent Ferris; 06-05-10 at 11:07 AM.

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    Re: Hamas not a terrorist group, says Turkey's PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Your whole comment is flawed since you've drawn the false assumption that the blockade came before the election of Hamas.
    See the part I've marked in your post.
    That's actually a good point you made there. Cant argue with that! Unfortunately, still doesn't make the unsustainable blockade appropriate or deter Hamas at the polls.

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    A country also has the right to defend it's citizens. Starting a comment with your "I love a perfect Israel" comment is so weak it is pathetic. Maybe in Denmark, the citizens would be fine if your neighbors lobbed rockets into your cities and would do nothing.

    How has the agreement to keep Southern Lebanon free of Hezbelloh missles gone. And that is with so called peacekeepers from the UN.

    Lastly, I am not sure if many of the folks on this site are simply mininformed or worse, but Hezbellah, Iran, Hamas etc see getting back to the pre 1967 borders as a first step in their goal to what they want which is one state. This would call for the deportation of Jews who did not live there before the first world war.
    Washnut, the blockade is persecuting the Palestinians, not Hamas. If you think the blockade will somehow stop weapons (a very dim assumption considering there arsenal is as big as ever) into Gaza and will somehow end the conflict, your stupid ass should have built taller walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Man **** that ****. People are responsible for their own actions. The Founding Fathers are the product of U.S. policies, Ghandi is the product of Indian policies, the IRA was the product of Irish policies, and likewise Hamas is the product of Palestinian policies, the PKK is the product of Kurdish policies (only supported by a very small minority btw), and the V.C. was the product of the Vietnamese. When faced with persecution and oppression (real or perceived) there are ways to legitimately go about reaching your goals and there are illegitimate ways, the first is to attempt every peaceful avenue to obtaining your goals until they are exhausted; such as, the Founding Fathers did through numerous petitions to the British Crown, how Ghandi did through his passive resistance, or how the IRA did prior to Easter Rising by trying to get the crown to pass and enforce the Home Rule Act of 1914, Ghandi was successful without violence, the Irish and the Americans then went on to more drastic measures but did they start off murdering British civilians? No they conducted legitimate military operations, they targeted the enemies military and political leadership, and even with the less legitimate IRA which was to come during "The Troubles" the IRA would phone in bombings ahead of time if they were going to bomb a civilian target; such as, a bank (which was likewise a legitimate targeting of the enemies economy as well). But Hamas, the PKK, and the V.C. never attempted peaceful avenues, refuse any compromise which would lead to a peaceful outcome, and they started off not only through violent means but by specifically targeting civilians for no military strategic value whatsoever, they did it simply to cause terror. That's what separates those terrorists groups from legitimate freedom fighters.

    So your saying the PKK would exist even if it wasn't for there oppression to begin with? In fact the PKK started as a political parliamentary party which enjoyed much Kurdish support. I call bull****. Our actions are influenced by the times.

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    Re: Hamas not a terrorist group, says Turkey's PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan

    [QUOTE=MetalGear;1058789746].



    Washnut, the blockade is persecuting the Palestinians, not Hamas. If you think the blockade will somehow stop weapons (a very dim assumption considering there arsenal is as big as ever) into Gaza and will somehow end the conflict, your stupid ass should have built taller walls.




    QUOTE]

    First who the heck are you to call me a stupid a**. We will let the moderators address that if they are not biased.

    Next, you convieniently forget when it suits you that Hamas is the government that the Gazans elected to represent them. So not sure how you seperate the two. I do not support the blockade and would like a better solution. I have not heard anything on your side that allows for a lifting of the blockade and having the government of Gaza stop unprovoked attacks on civilians ( which no one protests) and the return of a kidnapped soldier that you like to forget about.

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    Re: Hamas not a terrorist group, says Turkey's PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan

    Quote Originally Posted by MetalGear View Post
    So your saying the PKK would exist even if it wasn't for there oppression to begin with?

    I'm saying that Turkey's actions in no way justifies the existence of the PKK nor does it cause them to carry out their murderous acts. Turkey didn't create the PKK radical Kurds created the PKK. By your standard the U.S. government is responsible for the creation of AQ.

    In fact the PKK started as a political parliamentary party
    No it didn't, it started out as a terrorist organization in the mid 70s:

    Activities

    During its establishment in the mid 1970s, amid violent clashes in the whole of Turkey, the organization used classic terrorism methods, such as the failed assassination of Mehmet Celal Bucak as a propaganda-of-the-deed.[22]After the 1980 military coup, the organization developed into a paramilitary organization using resources it acquired in Bekaa valleyin part of ex-Syrian-controlled Lebanon. After 1984, PKK began to use Maoist theory of people's war.[40][41]There are three phases in this theory. The militant base during the initial years was coming from different sources, so the first two phases were diffused to each other.
    [edit] 1978-1984

    In the first phase (1978–1984), the PKK tried to gain the support of the Kurdish population. It attacked the machinery of government and distributed propaganda in the region. PKK tactics were based on ambush, sabotage, riots, protests, and demonstrations against the Turkish government. PKK has also been accused of violent attacks on individual civilians or residential areas (Kurds and non-Kurds alike), who refused to co-operate with the PKK or were suspected of collaborating with the Turkish authorities. During these years, the PKK fought a turf war against other predominantly Kurdish organisations in Turkey. The PKK effectively used the prison force to gain appeal among the population.[42][43] In the whole Turkey, this period was characterized by violent clashes which culminated in the 1980 military coup.

    During this time, the organization argued that its violent actions were explained by the need to defend Kurds in the context of what it considered as the massive cultural suppression of Kurdish identity (including the 1983 Turkish Language Act Ban) and cultural rights carried out by other governments of the region.
    [edit] 1984-1999

    In the second phase (1984–1999), which followed the return of civilian rule in 1983, escalating attacks were made on the government's military and vital institutions all over the country. The objective was to destabilise Turkish authority through a long, low-intensity confrontation. In addition to skirmishing with Turkish military and police forces and local village guards, the PKK has conducted suicide bombing on government and police installations, as well as at local tourist sites.[44] Kidnapping and assassination against government officials and Kurdish tribal leaders who were named as puppets of the state were performed as well. Widespread sabotages were continued from the first stage. PKK performed kidnapping western tourists, primarily in Istanbul but also at different resorts. Its actions have taken place mainly in Turkey and against Turkish targets in other countries, although it has on occasions co-operated with other Kurdish nationalist paramilitary groups in neighboring states, such as Iraq and Iran.[45] PKK has also attacked Turkish diplomatic and commercial facilities across Western Europe. In effect, the Turkish state has led a series of counter-insurgency operations against the PKK, accompanied by political measures, starting with an explicit denunciation of separatism in the 1982 Constitution, and including proclamation of the state of emergency in various PKK-controlled territories starting in 1983 (when the military relinquished political control to the civilians). This series of administrative reforms against terrorism included in 1985 the creation of village guard system by the then prime minister Turgut ÷zal who is of partial Kurdish descent.

    PKK members in Sweden came into conflict with the Swedish government, and in 1986 PKK became the first main suspect for the assassination of Olof Palme. The illegal investigation of these suspicion led to the Ebbe Carlsson affair.

    In the late 1980s and early 1990s, in an effort to win increased support from the Kurdish peasantry, the PKK altered its leftist secular ideology to better accommodate and accept Islamic beliefs. The group also abandoned its previous strategy of attacking Kurdish civilians, focusing instead on government and tourist targets.[46] In its campaign, the organization has been accused of carrying out atrocities against both Turkish and Kurdish civilians and its actions have been criticised by human rights groups such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. Actions of the Turkish state in the past have also been criticised by these same groups.

    All in all, this low intensity conflict which has lasted more than thirty years has had a number of effects in the Turkish territory.
    [edit] 1999-current

    In the third phase (1999-current), after capture of ÷calan, according to Maoist theory of people's war claims that the conventional fighting should be established to seize cities, overthrow the government and take control of the country. This stage has never been achieved. In effect, after the capture of ÷calan, activities of the organization never reached previous levels.

    Since 1999, the organization began to use improvised explosive devices rather than direct confrontation.

    Kurdistan Workers' Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    which enjoyed much Kurdish support.
    Prove it, the PKK never got wide Kurdish support. The vast vast majority of Kurdish people supported peaceful coexistence and cooperation with their neighbors, compromise, and liberal democracy not revolutionary communist terrorism.
    Last edited by Agent Ferris; 06-05-10 at 01:37 PM.

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    Re: Hamas not a terrorist group, says Turkey's PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan

    Well if the Palestinians/Hamas laid their weapons down there would be peace, if Israel laid their weapons down Israel would cease to exist.

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    Re: Hamas not a terrorist group, says Turkey's PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    First who the heck are you to call me a stupid a**. We will let the moderators address that if they are not biased.

    Next, you convieniently forget when it suits you that Hamas is the government that the Gazans elected to represent them. So not sure how you seperate the two. I do not support the blockade and would like a better solution. I have not heard anything on your side that allows for a lifting of the blockade and having the government of Gaza stop unprovoked attacks on civilians ( which no one protests) and the return of a kidnapped soldier that you like to forget about.
    Oh jesus christ. We have another one. Im waiting for the pro-terrorist accusations now.
    I was also referring to Israel when i said "your stupid ass" unless its you personally building the walls.

    Who the hell is saying Hamas doesn't deserve to be blown the hell out? Nobody here buddy. I've stated repeatedly the Gaza offensive was needed, was required and was vital in stemming the short term aggression of Hamas. However, the current blockade has done nothing but cause further instability, and it is creating a humanitarian concern which could be avoided. Hamas poses no more of a threat to Israel without the blockade. Its a pointless policy towards Gaza which isn't working, neither is the Cuban embargo, end of.

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    Re: Hamas not a terrorist group, says Turkey's PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    I'm saying that Turkey's actions in no way justifies the existence of the PKK nor does it cause them to carry out their murderous acts. Turkey didn't create the PKK radical Kurds created the PKK. By your standard the U.S. government is responsible for the creation of AQ.
    And radical Kurds where created as a result of years of Turkish oppression which spread hatred in the Kurdish community which continues to exist today,



    No it didn't, it started out as a terrorist organization in the mid 70s:
    It transformed itself to a paramilitary organization, it was initially a branch of a political party and this transformation took place under Abdullah Ocalan with communist support.

    Prove it, the PKK never got wide Kurdish support. The vast vast majority of Kurdish people supported peaceful coexistence and cooperation with their neighbors, compromise, and liberal democracy not revolutionary communist terrorism.
    I didn't say it got a majority of the Kurdish support, but it did enjoy relatively high numbers of support from Kurds nonetheless - mainly from Northern Iraq, where they launch there attacks. When the Americans and Turks where trying to root out bases in Kirkuk, the Kurdish communities would refuse to name the names of the leaders and the location of the bases despite complete anonymity. It's like a damn Sicilian community when the people just dont talk.
    Its the way of the world. The only way foward is the Turkish Kurdish Democratic initiative.
    It has already reduced its support.

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