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Thread: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    I thought I looked at your profile awhile ago. I don't recall seeing "comedien" as your occupation. But, my eyes are starting to fail me.

    If you're looking to play ball.... It's been established that torture orders came down from Rummy, maybe even higher, thru Gen Sanchez.
    Evidence is requred for this claim.

    CIA spooks were in there directing those National Guardsmen in what to do.
    Evidence required for this claim.

    Those convicted were scapegoats for the likes of neo-cons Rummy, Cheeney and Bush's warped ideas of American honor.

    Guantanamo was a disaster. Perhaps you read about all the admin Republican attorneys and judges resigning over it?

    You are truly a funny guy!

    Please don't tell me you're going to claim otherwise. Your Leaning says "Slightly" Conservative.[/B]
    As you goosestep down the path with George Soros hand in hand, how about actually backing up these ridiculous claims of yours with resources outside wikipedia and moveon.org?
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Ah, yeah, that's right - I, a petit 4'11" woman will not be trying to waterboard anyone no matter what - nor will I be slinging a gun or other some such.
    What good is it to try to 'save my family' - in this fictitious situation - if I'm only going to get my ass handed to me in the process?
    I would expect law enforcement to step in and handle it without resorting to taking time torturing someone.

    Besides, torture leads to people dilvulging information which might not be accurate - I don't know how 'accurate' such information is, now, but back in the days of the salem witch trials and the spanish enquisition torture was used and false confessions came pouring out.

    I'd rather have limited *real* information than overabundent *bull***** lies.
    That is exactly the response I expected you to give.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Yeah you did. You took non-state actors and called them enemy combattants, which the Geneva Convention does not address.
    So let me get this straight you're now asserting that the Geneva Conventions don't even address the issue of those who we have detained and yet assert that they are covered by the Geneva Conventions? You can't have it both ways.

    The Geneva Conventions clearly outline who is a protected person, if a person does not fall into the category of non-combatant or lawful combatant then they are not protected by the Geneva Conventions except for Common Article 3 which states that their status will be determined by a competent tribunal which it was by our Executively (and then Congressionally created) military tribunal system.

    Furthermore; even their protection under Common Article 3 is a clear misreading of the article in question in that the sentence "conflicts not of an international character" of Common Article 3 was clearly in reference to civil wars not international terrorism.

    But regardless one thing is perfectly clear they neither fell under the category of protected persons and are thus do not fall under the purview of the Geneva Conventions. And as an aside it is good of you to acknowledge that Gaza and the West Bank are not covered under the Geneva Conventions either as they like unlawful enemy combatants are non-state actors.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    If you're looking to play ball.... It's been established that torture orders came down from Rummy, maybe even higher, thru Gen Sanchez. CIA spooks were in there directing those National Guardsmen in what to do. Those convicted were scapegoats for the likes of neo-cons Rummy, Cheeney and Bush's warped ideas of American honor.
    According to who? Common Dreams or Prison Planet?

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Who they have prosecuted is not. In VN the US prosecuted US soldiers for waterboarding, the same practice done today.



    Not the Japanese, US soldiers in VN.
    Ya I mentioned that, this assertion as been thrown around a lot and to this day after repeated request no one can provide a case summary, the name of the case, or even the name of the soldier in question. Perhaps you'll have better luck than the rest of the people who all supplied the same un-cited article making the same unsubstantiated claims.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    Here, you prove my point. On one hand you say "KSM certainly deserved it", implying punishment.

    Then you say he "has vital and secret information about our enemies", implying you want to get actionable and reliable info from him to save "innocent Americans".

    You can't have both goals, use the same actions and expect to get both results.
    I am implying interrogation, he deserves to be interrogated by the harshest methods available.

    And yes, I do want to get reliable and true evidence in order to save Americans. Non American citizens who have committed war crimes and the most atrocious acts of terrorism deserve absolutely no rights.

    I can have both goals, I want justice and security. Not justice through torture, but security through harsh interrogation and justice through making the remainder of his existence a living hell.
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    If you condone torture, then you shouldn't complain about your own getting the same treatment.
    I might have been more sympathetic about the whole waterboarding thing, if I hadn't seen that video of Pearl slowly, agonizingly being tortured to death by having his head sawn off with a serrated knife, screaming in pain and terror, FIRST before I ever heard about waterboarding.

    I might have been more sympathetic about it if it wasn't something we do to our own soldiers, including a number of men I know well, who have told me about the experience. They said it was very scary and they hated it but that they suffered no real harm.

    World of difference between something that does no lasting harm that we do to our own to toughen them up (waterboarding), and slowly sawing off a journalists' head while he screams in horror (until he was no longer able to do anything but make inhuman croaking sounds).

    Comparison FAIL.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    .

    As a follow on to Goshin's point (I think) Seems like this would be are great time in the discussion to clarify exactly what everyone is useing for their definition of torture.

    On the Low end we have:
    Sleep deprivation
    Loud music
    Pictures of nekkid girls
    bugs
    limited diet, etc


    On the High end the really nasty crap:
    Beatings
    disfigurement
    Death marches, etc.

    In the middle somewhere we have waterboarding

    So where exactly do the low tolerance types draw the line?? Is there anything that you would find morally acceptable in making a suspected terrorist prisoner uncomfortable in the effort to extract information from them.....??



    .

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Cole View Post
    .

    As a follow on to Goshin's point (I think) Seems like this would be are great time in the discussion to clarify exactly what everyone is useing for their definition of torture.

    On the Low end we have:
    Sleep deprivation
    Loud music
    Pictures of nekkid girls
    bugs
    limited diet, etc


    On the High end the really nasty crap:
    Beatings
    disfigurement
    Death marches, etc.

    In the middle somewhere we have waterboarding

    So where exactly do the low tolerance types draw the line?? Is there anything that you would find morally acceptable in making a suspected terrorist prisoner uncomfortable in the effort to extract information from them.....??



    .

    Pics of nekkid girls is torture?

    Well bring on the torture then!


    (then again, if they're make-a-train-take-a-dirt-road-UGLY, that might be different....)

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    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    I'll hear you out, Tucker. Give me a scenario were torture can be construed as morally right.
    If someone were to rape and murder my child, me torturing him in retaliation would be the morally correct action. It would still be illegal (as it should be, for the same reasons I feel it should be illegal for the government to do it), but it would abso-friggin-lutely be morally correct for me to torture the bastard.

    Illegal =/= immoral, moral =/= legal.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 06-03-10 at 08:13 PM.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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