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Thread: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    I think this is great, I support water boarding and KSM certainly deserved it. He is a non US citizen terrorist that most definitely has vital and secret information about our enemies. I'd rather make that animals uncomfortable than have more innocent Americans die.
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    Well said, both posts. They will say anything to make it stop and what better way to do that than to lie their butts off, causing misdirection of resources and wasting of valuable time.




    The "ticking time bomb" scenario is ridiculous. The likelihood of snagging a bad guy with "only hours" in which to act to prevent an attack, is very far fetched.

    There are other ways to get information. There are many other stories like this from interrogators, but I find this one the most poignant.


    Read more: After Waterboarding: How to Make Terrorists Talk? - TIME

    Lest anyone start laughing that I propose to give all terrorists cookies, that isn't the point, that was the bait this terrorist took. Smart interrogators know how to find a weakness and exploit it. Sugar free cookies was this guy's, so the joke was on him.
    Quite right. There are more effective ways than torture. The point is to get the information. We should seek themost effective way, and almost across the board the experts agree torture isn't the most effective way.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by soccerboy22 View Post
    I completely understand where you are coming from, but it is just something that would haunt me for the rest of my life if I did. For me I wouldn't torture some one to save a loved one, but I would without a doubt or hesitation give my life to save a loved one. But I still realize that while we may disagree on waterboarding as a means of saving some one, our hearts are probably in the same place of wanting to save a loved one.
    Can't argue that. It is the right of those who cannot bring themselves to do the job to hold that morality and it is commendable. I will say this and I hope it doesn't get taken the wrong way, I am glad that we have those who will do the unthinkable on our behalf to spare us the dirty job.
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Quite right. There are more effective ways than torture. The point is to get the information.
    Boo,

    No one thinks torture is the best and only option is every circumstance. Sometimes there will be no need to employ it while other times there might be. It shouldn't be our decision, though. We should leave that up to the discretion of the experts.

    We should seek themost effective way, and almost across the board the experts agree torture isn't the most effective way.
    The "most effective way" is situational. There is no singular method or tactic that will be "the most effective way" in every situation, which is why limiting our options is "the least effective way".

    And could you provide proof that "almost across the board the experts agree torture isn't the most effective way"? If that's true, then why did our intelligence and military apparatuses resort to waterboarding so frequently? Seems the experts actions speak louder than their alleged words.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    Gina,

    The ticking time bomb scenario is a hypothetical that is meant to examine the moral basis of so-called torture. The chances of it occurring is immaterial to the nature of the discussion.

    Also, the likelihood of nineteen AQ operatives hijacking four airliners and flying them into the WTC and Pentagon seemed very far-fetched as well, but reality does not always conform to our expectations about what is likely.

    I think our intelligence and military apparatuses should have as many options, tactics, and tools at their disposal, to be used at their discretion in the defense of this nation and its people. Arbitrarily denying them a tool because of some nebulous moral sentiment seems like folly to me.
    Even if presented as unlikely and as a basis for discussion, I don't believe "the ticking time bomb" a reasonable hypothetical. Hypothetical arguments are most useful when there is some possibility of the situation in question actually being played out.

    Given the nature of most responses from either side, a firm moral belief one way or another about torture, is the determining factor, not the scenario.

    Those of us who see torture as morally reprehensible would not under any circumstances approve of it.

    Many of those who would waterboard, don't believe it's torture, hence they have no problem with it. Even if they agree, it is torture, the nature of the person to be tortured is the justification, not the situation rendering the ticking time bomb is immaterial.

    "Nebulous moral sentiment"? It's the law. We don't torture. As has been said in this thread already, our country has prosecuted people for waterboarding. The law is not a "nebulous moral sentiment", though morality is basis of it. As it is with all laws.
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I think this is great, I support water boarding and KSM certainly deserved it. He is a non US citizen terrorist that most definitely has vital and secret information about our enemies. I'd rather make that animals uncomfortable than have more innocent Americans die.
    Here, you prove my point. On one hand you say "KSM certainly deserved it", implying punishment.

    Then you say he "has vital and secret information about our enemies", implying you want to get actionable and reliable info from him to save "innocent Americans".

    You can't have both goals, use the same actions and expect to get both results.
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    Gina,

    The ticking time bomb scenario is a hypothetical that is meant to examine the moral basis of so-called torture. The chances of it occurring is immaterial to the nature of the discussion.
    The ticking time bomb was more than a hypothetical! It was THEE last ditch excuse put forth by Cheeney, Rice, Rumsfeld and Bush to excuse torture and invading Iraq! (And all when they all knew Iraq had no WMDs!)
    Thank You Barack Obama for Restoring Honor To The Presidency.
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    Of course he defended his actions. Has he ever admitted making any mistakes? His character is too weak to be so honorable. He's too stupid to even be aware of how the misinfo they got from those water boarding sessions vastly outweighed any valuable info. He's too intellectually lazy to even contemplate how many lives their show of bravado put in danger. He's too dishonest to admit that all that misinfo cost them (the CIA, FBI, British intel services, etc.) millions of dollars in time and manpower tracking down wild goose chases.

    Who gives a **** what this piece of trash says?

    We can tell he's lying. His lips are moving.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    BTw, any evidence Bush saved lives with torture?
    Any evidence Bush did not save lives with torture?
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    he's not evil, just a dick. and pretty damned ignorant.
    what?? No thanks for that lame crack?? Oh wait, that lame useful crack. Well, I'll do the honors.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Any evidence Bush did not save lives with torture?
    Any that he did?
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