Page 4 of 32 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 314

Thread: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

  1. #31
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Gina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:54 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    31,918

    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    I don't support methods like water boarding, either. It never really made sense to me.

    A common argument *for* it is (I'll paraphrase Bill O'Reilly): "If your family was in danger wouldn't you do anything in your power, including water boarding someone, to get more information so you can protect them?"

    Well - if my family was in danger and I went vigilante and attempted to torture information out of someone it's possible I could be brought up on charges and accused of torture, at the least. If it's unacceptable for me then it should be unacceptable for the government as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Ah, yeah, that's right - I, a petit 4'11" woman will not be trying to waterboard anyone no matter what - nor will I be slinging a gun or other some such.
    What good is it to try to 'save my family' - in this fictitious situation - if I'm only going to get my ass handed to me in the process?
    I would expect law enforcement to step in and handle it without resorting to taking time torturing someone.

    Besides, torture leads to people dilvulging information which might not be accurate - I don't know how 'accurate' such information is, now, but back in the days of the salem witch trials and the spanish enquisition torture was used and false confessions came pouring out.

    I'd rather have limited *real* information than overabundent *bull***** lies.
    Well said, both posts. They will say anything to make it stop and what better way to do that than to lie their butts off, causing misdirection of resources and wasting of valuable time.


    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    soccerboy,

    Find another way? Like what?

    Suppose there was no other way, what would you do?
    The "ticking time bomb" scenario is ridiculous. The likelihood of snagging a bad guy with "only hours" in which to act to prevent an attack, is very far fetched.

    There are other ways to get information. There are many other stories like this from interrogators, but I find this one the most poignant.
    Abu Jandal's guards were so intimidated by him, they wore masks to hide their identities and begged visitors not to refer to them by name in his presence. He had no intention of cooperating with the Americans; at their first meetings, he refused even to look at them and ranted about the evils of the West. Far from confirming al-Qaeda's involvement in 9/11, he insisted the attacks had been orchestrated by Israel's Mossad. While Abu Jandal was venting his spleen, Soufan noticed that he didn't touch any of the cookies that had been served with tea: "He was a diabetic and couldn't eat anything with sugar in it." At their next meeting, the Americans brought him some sugar-free cookies, a gesture that took the edge off Abu Jandal's angry demeanor. "We had showed him respect, and we had done this nice thing for him," Soufan recalls. "So he started talking to us instead of giving us lectures."

    It took more questioning, and some interrogators' sleight of hand, before the Yemeni gave up a wealth of information about al-Qaeda including the identities of seven of the 9/11 bombers but the cookies were the turning point. "After that, he could no longer think of us as evil Americans," Soufan says. "Now he was thinking of us as human beings."
    Read more: After Waterboarding: How to Make Terrorists Talk? - TIME

    Lest anyone start laughing that I propose to give all terrorists cookies, that isn't the point, that was the bait this terrorist took. Smart interrogators know how to find a weakness and exploit it. Sugar free cookies was this guy's, so the joke was on him.
    I don't attack my constituents. Bob is my constituent now.
    This is the important stuff. We cant get lost in discrimination. We cant get lost in B.S. We cant get lost tearing each other down. I want to make a point here that no matter what you look like, where you come from, how you worship, who you love, how you identify, and yeah, how you run, that if you have good public policy ideas, if you are well qualified for office, bring those ideas to the table, because this is your America, too. This is our commonwealth of Virginia, too.
    Danica Roem - The nation's first openly transgender person elected to serve in a U.S. state legislature.

  2. #32
    Guru
    ADK_Forever's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Last Seen
    05-07-11 @ 09:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    3,706

    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I watched a video of that journalist, Pearl, having his head slowly sawed off by terrorists. He was terrified, and before his head ever came off he went from screaming to making inhuman-sounding croaking noises.


    Seeing that video put an upper limit on how much sympathy I have for poor widdle terrorists who got waterboarded, especially considering we waterboard our own soldiers to toughen them up against interrogation in SERE training.
    The point that you, and all the Bush & Cheeney lovers, seem to miss is that the people who defend the use of water boarding "claim" its purpose is to extract information. Experts across the globe will tell you that is not the case. People being tortured will tell you anything they think you want to hear to stop the torture. And they all say so afterwards.

    The REAL reason Bush & Cheeney lovers like the idea of torture is because they think it punishes our enemies, gets even for hideous actions like the way they murdered Daniel Pearl. I would have no problem water boarding, and worse, to Daniel Pearl's murderers. But, if I want information from our enemy I want him to be cooperative so I can depend on his info. Like the way we got actionable info from the Christmas Day bomber, etc. "You get more flies with honey" kinda analogy.

    That stupid defense that we put our soldiers thru the same thing is just that... stupid. We're not trying to get info from them. They know it will stop. Its sole purpose is to show our soldiers what they might be in for if they get captured. That's why it's called "training".
    Thank You Barack Obama for Restoring Honor To The Presidency.
    President Obama will rank as one of our greatest presidents!

  3. #33
    Tavern Bartender
    Pussy Grabbin' Beaver
    Middleground's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Canada's Capital
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:44 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    22,455
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I watched a video of that journalist, Pearl, having his head slowly sawed off by terrorists. He was terrified, and before his head ever came off he went from screaming to making inhuman-sounding croaking noises.


    Seeing that video put an upper limit on how much sympathy I have for poor widdle terrorists who got waterboarded, especially considering we waterboard our own soldiers to toughen them up against interrogation in SERE training.
    If you condone torture, then you shouldn't complain about your own getting the same treatment.
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

  4. #34
    Klattu Verata Nicto
    LaMidRighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Louisiana
    Last Seen
    07-21-17 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    30,534

    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by soccerboy22 View Post
    I don't know, but all I do know is I am not willing nor can I ever torture some one.
    I respect when people give this type of opinion to be honest. I don't feel that our values extend to people who would attack us......this is a personal belief as is the argument that our values do extend outside of our borders. This being said I don't personally know you but you are my countryman and this being said if my humanitarian values got in the way of protecting you or any other U.S. citizen I will defer to my country's well being. It might make me personally sick to torture another human being.......but if it saved a single civilian or allied soldier's life I'd do it with a clear conscience.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  5. #35
    Klattu Verata Nicto
    LaMidRighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Louisiana
    Last Seen
    07-21-17 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    30,534

    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    If you condone torture, then you shouldn't complain about your own getting the same treatment.
    There is quite a big difference between waterboarding and sawing someone's head off.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  6. #36
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Last Seen
    07-01-10 @ 02:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    157

    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by soccerboy22 View Post
    Nope I could not physically or mentally bring myself to waterboard some one. It just is not part of me.
    soccerboy,

    A moral abstraction is more important to you than the lives of your loved ones?

  7. #37
    Why so serious?

    Moon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Washington State
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:50 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    4,291

    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    If you condone torture, then you shouldn't complain about your own getting the same treatment.
    I support our guys killing the enemy, so according to your logic, I shouldn't complain when our guys are killed by the enemy. Do I have that right?
    "I believe in a Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."

    --Albert Einstein, 1929

  8. #38
    Sage
    soccerboy22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    A warm place
    Last Seen
    12-02-17 @ 10:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    10,723

    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I respect when people give this type of opinion to be honest. I don't feel that our values extend to people who would attack us......this is a personal belief as is the argument that our values do extend outside of our borders. This being said I don't personally know you but you are my countryman and this being said if my humanitarian values got in the way of protecting you or any other U.S. citizen I will defer to my country's well being. It might make me personally sick to torture another human being.......but if it saved a single civilian or allied soldier's life I'd do it with a clear conscience.
    I completely understand where you are coming from, but it is just something that would haunt me for the rest of my life if I did. For me I wouldn't torture some one to save a loved one, but I would without a doubt or hesitation give my life to save a loved one. But I still realize that while we may disagree on waterboarding as a means of saving some one, our hearts are probably in the same place of wanting to save a loved one.

  9. #39
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Last Seen
    07-01-10 @ 02:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    157

    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    The "ticking time bomb" scenario is ridiculous. The likelihood of snagging a bad guy with "only hours" in which to act to prevent an attack, is very far fetched.

    There are other ways to get information. There are many other stories like this from interrogators, but I find this one the most poignant.


    Read more: After Waterboarding: How to Make Terrorists Talk? - TIME

    Lest anyone start laughing that I propose to give all terrorists cookies, that isn't the point, that was the bait this terrorist took. Smart interrogators know how to find a weakness and exploit it. Sugar free cookies was this guy's, so the joke was on him.
    Gina,

    The ticking time bomb scenario is a hypothetical that is meant to examine the moral basis of so-called torture. The chances of it occurring is immaterial to the nature of the discussion.

    Also, the likelihood of nineteen AQ operatives hijacking four airliners and flying them into the WTC and Pentagon seemed very far-fetched as well, but reality does not always conform to our expectations about what is likely.

    I think our intelligence and military apparatuses should have as many options, tactics, and tools at their disposal, to be used at their discretion in the defense of this nation and its people. Arbitrarily denying them a tool because of some nebulous moral sentiment seems like folly to me.

  10. #40
    Sage
    soccerboy22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    A warm place
    Last Seen
    12-02-17 @ 10:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    10,723

    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    soccerboy,

    A moral abstraction is more important to you than the lives of your loved ones?
    Well for me it isn't a moral abstraction, it is literally part of my personality. But yes I am not willing to torture some one to save a loved one. I am willing to give my own life to take their place, but I am not willing to torture.

Page 4 of 32 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •