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Thread: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Originally Posted by ADK_Forever I certainly don't want to read into what your anemic posting of 2 lone links means. Can you link those 2 links to taking our country to war or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    BTW, Will you be linking to US courts convicting US Soldiers of torture for waterboarding anytime soon or are you avoiding this lie of yours hoping it will go away

    4th request, or are you conceding you were lying?
    So I take it you can't make a case for us going to war based on those 2 lonely links... right?

    Where did I say "US soldiers" were convicted of waterboarding?
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    So I take it you can't make a case for us going to war based on those 2 lonely links... right?

    Where did I say "US soldiers" were convicted of waterboarding?



    Playing obtuse now? Please follow the thread back to where you made the claim. Don't try to coward out by suggesting you didn't mean "US soldiers" because if you did, your point would make zero sense. or in your case -2 sense.
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Playing obtuse now? Please follow the thread back to where you made the claim. Don't try to coward out by suggesting you didn't mean "US soldiers" because if you did, your point would make zero sense. or in your case -2 sense.
    I know this is going to be a hard concept for you to accept buuuuut, words matter. If you are going to childishly accuse someone of lying, it would be in your best interest to make damn sure you have your facts straight. And here, once again, you don't.

    You really do like to hide behind the internet's skirts, don't you? What do you think might happen, in the real world, if you accused another man of lying and were 100% wrong? Hell, the issue here isn't even that you're wrong. You're just a damn liar.
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Good. Glad that he had the balls to stand up for what's right despite all these extremists out to crucify him for not putting ice cream on Khalid's brownie.

    So doing the same acts as our enemy will not set us apart.
    They don't waterboard POWs over there. They behead them. Go spend some time in a Taliban prison, then come back here and ask if we're that bad.

    And the purpose of interrogation isn't to "bet the better man", it's to extract information. If you think waterboarding is "torture", then 1. that's nonsense, since it doesn't cause any permanent harm, and 2. I could care less when it comes to terrorist scum. An eye for an eye, I say.

    The man even defended his action
    Good for him. That sure takes bigger balls than you sniping at him here (and no, I'm no Bush fan, but I'm not deranged enough to go after him for something this ridiculous).
    disgusting.
    Not at all. I'm only disgusted that they were so soft on him. He should have waterboarded him with hydrochloric acid. Water? Seriously George, don't be such a pussy. You got us into this war, so the least you can do is redeem yourself but treating terrorists like the subhuman dreck they are. But good job anyway.
    Last edited by Toothpicvic; 06-10-10 at 04:11 PM.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    There is nothing logical in your argument but, it is surely an assumption. You obviously know nothing about torture and take the word of only those people who line up with your political leanings.

    I do almost all the work that needs to be done on my property. Some things I may have never done before but, if it's something that I can teach myself I'll research it and do it. i.e. falling trees, running a new circuit to the pool filter, adding a garage, building a 16x24 shed, replacing a roof, replacing a main circuit breaker, etc. However, some things take specialized machines, manpower and experience that I cannot learn or do myself so, I hire experts. I needed a new driveway but, did not have access to the machines or the manpower required so, I hired a reputable local company, who came highly recommended. Same when I needed a foundation dug and poured for the garage.

    I take the same approach to torture. I listen to the professionals, and people who have actually been tortured, who know much more about this than I do. The only intelligent assumption to make on torture is that a person will say anything to stop the pain. Think about it. If I were twisting your arm almost to the point where your arm was about to break with my boot stepping on your throat, you would tell me anything to get me to stop. Our military are trained how to deal longer with torture but, they are also taught that every man has a breaking point and that all they are asked to do is to hold out as long as they can. If they break and give up information after being tortured it will not be held against them and they will not be considered traitors. Why is this? Because they know that anybody will break, sooner or later. There are no Jack Bauers.


    These are your beliefs. Interrogation doesn't always work, and the same can be said with torture. To say it never works is ludicrous. Combining the two i believe is effective. Khalid obviously became an asset.

    Also, in your argument you assume the tortured has info to give up. What if he doesn't have any and can't convince his captors of this?
    We need to draw a fine line when torture begins and when it ends. As it stands no such line exists so i cannot properly support what Bush ordered. However, in this case, it is likely the captive will die. Considering he is just a terrorist, torturing him to death actually appeals to me and im sure you will agree it sends out a strong message to other terrorists. I wouldn't want to pay tax payer money to house terrorists, even in a prison cell. Would much rather all of those caught where tortured to death if there crimes have been proven in a court case. Sorry, but i feel no sympathy towards those vile beasts.
    Last edited by kaya'08; 06-10-10 at 04:13 PM.
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    These are your beliefs.

    Yes, based on experts' opinions!


    Khalid obviously became an asset.

    So, what did he say that makes you think so?


    Sorry, but i feel no sympathy towards those vile beasts.

    Nor do I. My concern is getting real data that can help us, not send us on wild goose chases.
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post


    I get your frustration with this war, with this enemy, with their use of religion to fuel their fires. But, nowhere in your eloquent post is anything showing that torture is "effective". Using the right wing rhetoric that "it is only the liberals and the left who are against torture" is disingenuous and an excuse to inflict pain on our enemy. Many Repubs have come out against torture, including the Repubs' god Ronnie Reagan! If you can take your I-hate-anything-left blinders off and look at this issue with a clear mind you just might see that there are very real reasons why professional like Soufan are against torture... it just doesn't work. Our enemies don't come filled with more hate for us than KSM. Yet, Soufan elicited very good intel from him with conversation and intelligence. He didn't have to break his arm or drown him. THAT is how actionable, real intelligence is gotten.



    I am heartened with your acknowledgment of the frustration over the war brought to us against radical Islam, however, I need to clarify a few things for you.

    1st. - I am neither being disingenuous, nor deceptive when I say that terrorists captured require different methods of interrogation to glean the intel we need to prevail. It is a fact. And I would say in response that your attempt to dismiss that through what you ascribe to me is what is indeed disingenuous.

    2nd. - It is not that I "hate" anything left, as much as I disagree with its ends, and its self loathing of the country that they derive their very existence from yet display such guilt over being born in the freest, most prosperous country on earth.

    3rd. - Yes, there are real statements from past Presidents like Reagan, and even Geo. Bush that you can point to regarding torture, and the repulsive nature of true torture. I have even stated that I am against that. However, I don't believe that we have, or do indeed torture as a policy.

    That you can point to an ex interrogator, and hold up his statements as endemic of how the CIA feels toward policies instituted toward the prime objective of the agency as a whole, is just plain wrong, and I think simplifies the subject too far. It is the use of what Marx called 'useful idiots' that is offensive here.

    Lastly on this paragraph, If you really don't believe that our enemies in the Islamic Jihad against the west harbor the exact opposite emotion toward us that they do for a figure like KSM then all I can tell you brother, you just don't understand what we are up against.

    Here are a few links to sites showing Repub leaders who are against torture. Are their eyes and ears plugged too?


    VetVoice:: Petraeus Against Torture, For Closing Gitmo

    GOP were Against Torture Before Being For It - Reagan and Newt | coonsey's Blog

    And from another professional who knows what is torture, what the effects of torture are and how our use of it actually helped Al Qaeda to recruit more terrorists. We in effect, by torturing them, only help our enemy. How does that make any sense?
    Do you believe that General Petraeus, or any of the professionals that you fail to name other than those that can be used to further only your particular point of view, really believe that this struggle can be won by showing weakness? it is a primary cause that the Islamic Jihad feels that they can attack without much if any reprisal now.

    The long debunked argument that it is only our actions that is causing recruitment, or the jihad to begin with is naive, and has been shown as such many moons ago. It is a point that you have to make, just not a very good one.


    Before I arrived at SERE, I went to S21 prison in Cambodia. Right next to the Wall of Skulls sits the exact waterboard platform that the SERE program copied for our own use in the training program.[/INDENT]Is Nance, and Reagan!, really more liberal lefties that you're going to ignore simply because they agree with the left's views of torture?

    There are hundreds of such sites with intelligent reasons why torture makes no sense. If you can remove your anti-liberal glasses, I am confident you'll see that using torture on our enemies does not help us or our cause at all.

    I know it must be easier to place in a box everything someone says that disagrees with your own point of view as anti liberal, or somehow extreme right wing. Lord knows that I have on occasion been guilty of doing the same in the reverse. However, as a dichotomy you could then prose that everything you are saying to me can be turned with the simple replacement of liberal for conservative. Just because someone doesn't see it your way, doesn't mean that they are just plain wrong.

    I for one see where you are coming from, and have great admiration for the wide eyed longing for a truly peaceful world. I just think that until that day comes we can not, and should not be the only ones to give up our ideals, and lives just to prove a point.

    You mentioned things about the closing of "Gitmo" and it can also be shown where Bush wanted that as well. Many do, not because it is a real and living torture camp or anything like that, but rather because it is a perception of such grave, and dower things. And why is that? In my view, because those on the left that opposed the war, also opposed the camp, and therefore launched an orchestrated campaign of smearing it. Did some of those things happen there? Yes. But if it were so damned easy to just close it down, and sing cumbya then why hasn't Obama done it yet.....? I know its complicated right?

    Here is a present day liberal outlet talking about this very thing....


    Video: Ass Quest 2010 | The Daily Show | Comedy Central

    Start watching around 3:00 in.


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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    compared to the murderous US troops of course.
    I notice you didn't answer with a specific example.


    Oh and a note convictions. Torture really is good at getting confessions. All the litature everyone will confess. They could get you to confess to killing Snata Claus.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I notice you didn't answer with a specific example.


    Oh and a note convictions. Torture really is good at getting confessions. All the litature everyone will confess. They could get you to confess to killing Snata Claus.

    Yeah, that's the standard reply from the uber libs out there, and has been for quite some time now. However, seems you can never quite get around how it is that the waterboarding of today is nothing like that of Pol Pot, or other despots through out history that use it to extremes. All you can do from this point is inflate numbers of times used, and make vague statements that you think everyone is subjected to the practice.

    About what one would expect from someone who believes in the Lancet numbers even after they were debunked.


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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    These are your beliefs. Interrogation doesn't always work, and the same can be said with torture. To say it never works is ludicrous. Combining the two i believe is effective. Khalid obviously became an asset.
    A professional interrogator just doesn't haul off and start waterboarding (not torture btw, if it was we would have tortured scores of our own troops), and when it gets to that point, the interrogator usually has ample info to find out what is truth and what is bull. That alone will make the recipient of cool water treatment a little uncomfortable, and rightly so... they're ****ing terrorist assholes intent on harming us.

    Extracting information by a physically harmless act (nobody has died of waterboarding), temporary discomfort and a little panic could save hundreds, thousands or even hundreds of thousands of lives... then by all means... welcome the terrorist scum to waterworld.

    You see, that kind of behavior saves lives, just as the Officer that put a gun to a terrorista's head, threatening to pull the trigger saved the lives of his men. He was thrown out of the military if I recall, but his men avoided an ambush, saving lives.

    Hero or war criminal?

    Hero.

    .
    Last edited by zimmer; 06-11-10 at 07:53 AM.
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