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Thread: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

  1. #151
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    The soldiers at Abu Grieb didn't act solely on their own. While the bottom was rightly punished, it is unjust that those who set this in motion did not get punished.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    I thought I looked at your profile awhile ago. I don't recall seeing "comedien" as your occupation. But, my eyes are starting to fail me.

    If you're looking to play ball.... It's been established that torture orders came down from Rummy, maybe even higher, thru Gen Sanchez. CIA spooks were in there directing those National Guardsmen in what to do. Those convicted were scapegoats for the likes of neo-cons Rummy, Cheeney and Bush's warped ideas of American honor.

    Guantanamo was a disaster. Perhaps you read about all the admin Republican attorneys and judges resigning over it?

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    Did they close it yet?
    You should try to remember, ideas are conveyed by researching information, vetting sources, and confirming said information. Not by regurgitating talking points given to you by your "news" station.
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  3. #153
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by jujuman13 View Post
    Legally it is unacceptable for you.
    However given the circumstances that your family is in danger, would you either do it yourself, countenance someone else in your family doing it or countenance someone else doing it, in order to save YOUR Family.
    Please try to answer thoughtfully and truthfully.
    I know what my answer would be under these circumstances.
    I wouldn't because your best odds are 50/50. They could merely lie to you to get you to stop.

    So you've done nothing to protect your family and you've committed a crime to boot.

  4. #154
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Uh....what? Cheney ordered the people at Abu Ghraib to leash the prisoners, treat them like dogs, take pictures, etc.?

    Interesting theory.
    Is that what I said?

    I've also read about all the Democrats keeping it open. I've also read about someplace called Bagram AFB, which is "worse" than Gitmo in every way that matters. Somewhat surprisingly, most people who excoriated Bush for Gitmo neither know nor give a **** about Bagram. First among those is President Obama, whose DoJ is fighting as hard as it can to deny those detained in Bagram the ability to challenge their detention in court.

    In fact, Obama won a big victory there just two weeks ago. Thanks to that, detainees who have sat there for seven years without access to counsel or a courtroom will continue to be detained indefinitely.

    Somewhat surprisingly, I don't see a single mention of that anywhere on the forum, nor do I hear calls from people like you for Obama to be impeached over this. I wonder why?
    Interesting that you avoided arguing any point I actually said. Hmmm... I wonder why that is?

    Bagram AFB. Sounds like a fascinating issue.Why don't you open a thread on it?

    This thread is about Bush admitting he ordered illegal treatment of prisoners which I have yet to see you or anyone else provide one point to the contrary.
    Last edited by ADK_Forever; 06-04-10 at 04:06 PM.
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    Is that what I said?
    You made two claims that I believe are false:

    1) The abuses at Abu Ghraib were part of authorized US policy, as opposed to unauthorized actions, and
    2) That that policy was set in place by Bush or Cheney.

    I'm still waiting for a shred of evidence to back up either claim.

    Note that I'm not referring to things like stress positions, sleep deprivation, etc. I'm referring to the things that made Abu Ghraib notorious - the physical beatings, the rape, etc.

    Interesting that you avoided arguing any point I actually said. Hmmm... I wonder why that is?
    Because you didn't say anything of substance. You argued that Gitmo was bad, and as proof you cited the fact that "republicans" had resigned. That's not really something worth responding to.

    Bagram AFB. Sounds like a fascinating issue.Why don't you open a thread on it?
    I have.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...ghanistan.html

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...prisoners.html

    I don't recall seeing you in either of them. But hey, this is as good a time as any - do you think Obama should be impeached for detaining people indefinitely and refusing to allow them to have access to the courts or counsel? If not, what makes Obama's actions re: Bagram less troubling than Bush's re: Gitmo?

    This thread is about Bush admitting he ordered illegal treatment of prisoners which I have yet to see you or anyone else provide one point to the contrary
    Are you referring to waterboarding, or something else that you're claiming was illegal?
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    If not, what makes Obama's actions re: Bagram less troubling than Bush's re: Gitmo?
    Bagram is in a war zone, gitmo isn't. That is a clear distinction that cannot be ignored.
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Bagram is in a war zone, gitmo isn't. That is a clear distinction that cannot be ignored.
    In general, refusing to allow detainees access to the courts when they are being held in war zones makes sense. Nobody thinks that people being held on the front lines should be filing briefs in court, as it could create risks for the troops or raise other problems.

    In the Gitmo cases, the court noted that this wasn't a very compelling factor, as the government maintained total control over the facility. I have a hard time seeing how Bagram is that different. We have had total control over that facility since December 2001. There are thousands of troops stationed there. In addition, Bagram holds a large number of detainees who were captured hundreds or thousands of miles from any warzone and were later transported to Bagram, precisely because the government (under both Bush and Obama) has been funneling everyone there in order to evade jurisdiction.

    It's hard to argue that it's too dangerous to give them access to the courts because its in the middle of a war zone when the military is actively picking up people in peaceful places and bringing them there.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Bagram is in a war zone, gitmo isn't. That is a clear distinction that cannot be ignored.
    The location of the prison doesn't change the prisoners's status as unlawful combatants.
    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    So there is absolutely no evidence this woman, whom you called a slut, did this but you are ready to take someone's word as evidence. Guess you don't think witch hunts have to end when it's going after the certain people.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    The entire hypothetical argument has no merit whatsoever. Appeals to emotion, throwing rationality out the window, "oh my god but what if" scenarios are cheap ways to manufacture justification for unjustifiable acts.
    Yes, they do have merit. They allow one to picture their actions in a situation they would unlikely ever find themselves in. Following behavior based on precedent and beliefs, we are more likely to come to a logical conclusion as what those actions would be. In no way does it throw rationality or logic out the window, unless you allow it to.

    So in your opinion, security analysts and Pentagon officals planning their response to what they would do to say Iran detonatiing a bomb in Tel Aviv has no merit and shouldn't be considered? Where does your appeal to emotion end? If the situation is not personal does that make it less emotional?
    Last edited by Polynikes; 06-04-10 at 07:10 PM.
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    In general, refusing to allow detainees access to the courts when they are being held in war zones makes sense. Nobody thinks that people being held on the front lines should be filing briefs in court, as it could create risks for the troops or raise other problems.

    In the Gitmo cases, the court noted that this wasn't a very compelling factor, as the government maintained total control over the facility. I have a hard time seeing how Bagram is that different. We have had total control over that facility since December 2001. There are thousands of troops stationed there. In addition, Bagram holds a large number of detainees who were captured hundreds or thousands of miles from any warzone and were later transported to Bagram, precisely because the government (under both Bush and Obama) has been funneling everyone there in order to evade jurisdiction.

    It's hard to argue that it's too dangerous to give them access to the courts because its in the middle of a war zone when the military is actively picking up people in peaceful places and bringing them there.
    The only decision that matters here is the one where Obama won the right to refuse Habaes corpus:

    Afghanistan remains a theater of active military combat.
    The United States and coalition forces conduct “an ongoing
    military campaign against al Qaeda, the Taliban regime, and
    their affiliates and supporters in Afghanistan.” These operations
    are conducted in part from Bagram Airfield. Bagram has been
    subject to repeated attacks from the Taliban and al Qaeda,
    including a March 2009 suicide bombing striking the gates of
    the facility, and Taliban rocket attacks in June of 2009 resulting
    in death and injury to United States service members and other
    personnel.
    It's really, really easy to argue that. In fact, they did. And won.
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