Page 15 of 32 FirstFirst ... 5131415161725 ... LastLast
Results 141 to 150 of 314

Thread: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

  1. #141
    Cynical Optimist
    jambalaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Last Seen
    11-28-12 @ 05:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    2,481

    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, it really deosn't fall into any gray area. We've denounced it when others have done it, and we have prosecuted people for doing it. There is nothing gray about it. And you personally having a problem with it or not doesn't change that. There are people who don't have a problem with beheading, but that would make any less illegal and wrong.
    I've beent through this discussion before including the Japanese incidents I see you citing below. The Japanese soldiers involved were prosecuted for a number of different torture activities one of which included water boarding. They did far worse things to the American soldiers they had captured including beating the hell out of them. The Japenese soldiers were prosecuted for torture not simply waterboarding.

  2. #142
    User
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Paris, France
    Last Seen
    06-20-11 @ 09:29 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    107

    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    BTw, any evidence Bush saved lives with torture?
    No none, and when will BUSH and CHENEY be waterboaded for War Crimes ????
    This is what I would like to know, because he only showed his Cowboy swagger and bad examples to the whole World and most Nations have lost respect fand trust for the U.S.A. and what it stand for because of his barbaric actions.

    I only hope Obama will be able to restore a little bit of Credibility and Respect for America as a whole among all the other chores he must do to get the Country back on track after the Bush Administration dumped it in the ditch and got out of town before sundown !!! Cowboy Style .....

  3. #143
    Every day I'm hustlin'..
    Lerxst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nationwide...
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 06:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    15,441

    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    It is wishful thinking to believe that the Obama administration will do anything to add credibility to and respect to America at this point. I voted for the man, I had certainly hoped for the same, but it's been a down hill slide in my opinion from day one. At least in the "credibility and respect" department. He's a politician, just like W, just like those before him. The system changes for no administration...and no administration can or really wants to change it in the first place.
    *insert profound statement here*

  4. #144
    Global Moderator
    Truth will set you free
    digsbe's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Metro Washington DC
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:03 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    18,983

    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie T. Mouse View Post
    No none, and when will BUSH and CHENEY be waterboaded for War Crimes ????
    This is what I would like to know, because he only showed his Cowboy swagger and bad examples to the whole World and most Nations have lost respect fand trust for the U.S.A. and what it stand for because of his barbaric actions.

    I only hope Obama will be able to restore a little bit of Credibility and Respect for America as a whole among all the other chores he must do to get the Country back on track after the Bush Administration dumped it in the ditch and got out of town before sundown !!! Cowboy Style .....
    Never, Bush and Cheney never committed war crimes.

    Are you being serious? The ones setting bad examples for the world are the UN and the EU. Just look at how they treat Israel and how they treat other conflicts. Look at how they treat Iran and the course of action they are taking with North Korea. Obama is dishonoring this country and acting exceedingly foolish when it comes to foreign policy. The world has become such a weak place where the wicked can rise up and the good only yell for "crippling sanctions" that never get put in place.
    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates
    Tired of elections being between the lesser of two evils.

  5. #145
    Cynical Optimist
    jambalaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Last Seen
    11-28-12 @ 05:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    2,481

    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie T. Mouse View Post
    No none, and when will BUSH and CHENEY be waterboaded for War Crimes ????
    This is what I would like to know, because he only showed his Cowboy swagger and bad examples to the whole World and most Nations have lost respect fand trust for the U.S.A. and what it stand for because of his barbaric actions.

    I only hope Obama will be able to restore a little bit of Credibility and Respect for America as a whole among all the other chores he must do to get the Country back on track after the Bush Administration dumped it in the ditch and got out of town before sundown !!! Cowboy Style .....
    And where is the evidence that serving tea and crumpets and giving your enemies back rubs ever saved a life? Truth is even if it did save a life or gave some information to kill a couple of bad guys nobody is going to hear about it. These things are kept secret. Waterboarding doesn't have to work each an every time you try it but you can bet some valuable information is obtained at times.

  6. #146
    Sage
    soccerboy22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    A warm place
    Last Seen
    12-02-17 @ 10:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    10,723

    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Polynikes View Post
    What a crock. It's a hypothetical situation. The only options are 1.) You waterboard to save your family 2.) Your family dies.

    Don't try to escape between the horns and come up with some "I would come up with some super clever way to save them"

    You would be waterboarding away.

    I don't think you can honestly say that you would refuse to waterboard a terrorist, not just some random guy off the street, and instead sit there and watch your wife/mother/daughter etc.. get killed or tortured
    Well as I explained later on in the thread I can honestly say I could never waterboard/torture another human being.

  7. #147
    Guru
    ADK_Forever's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Last Seen
    05-07-11 @ 09:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    3,706

    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Any evidence Bush did not save lives with torture?
    How about some proof that torture actually caused the deaths of tens if not hundreds of thousands of innocent people, including thousands of American servicemen and women?

    From Col. Lawrence B. Wilkerson, who is former chief of staff of the Department of State during the term of Secretary of State Colin Powell.


    Likewise, what I have learned is that as the administration authorized harsh interrogation in April and May of 2002--well before the Justice Department had rendered any legal opinion--its principal priority for intelligence was not aimed at pre-empting another terrorist attack on the U.S. but discovering a smoking gun linking Iraq and al-Qa'ida.

    So furious was this effort that on one particular detainee, even when the interrogation team had reported to Cheney's office that their detainee "was compliant" (meaning the team recommended no more torture), the VP's office ordered them to continue the enhanced methods. The detainee had not revealed any al-Qa'ida-Baghdad contacts yet. This ceased only after Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, under waterboarding in Egypt, "revealed" such contacts. Of course later we learned that al-Libi revealed these contacts only to get the torture to stop.

    There in fact were no such contacts. (Incidentally, al-Libi just "committed suicide" in Libya. Interestingly, several U.S. lawyers working with tortured detainees were attempting to get the Libyan government to allow them to interview al-Libi....)

    Less important but still busting my chops as a Republican, is the damage that the Sith Lord Cheney is doing to my political party.

    He and Rush Limbaugh seem to be its leaders now. Lindsay Graham, John McCain, John Boehner, and all other Republicans of note seem to be either so enamored of Cheney-Limbaugh (or fearful of them?) or, on the other hand, so appalled by them, that the cat has their tongues. And meanwhile fewer Americans identify as Republicans than at any time since WWII. We're at 21% and falling--right in line with the number of cranks, reprobates, and loonies in the country.

    When will we hear from those in my party who give a damn about their country and about the party of Lincoln?

    When will someone of stature tell Dick Cheney that enough is enough? Go home. Spend your 70 million. Luxuriate in your Eastern Shore mansion. Shoot quail with your friends--and your friends.

    Stay out of our way as we try to repair the extensive damage you've done--to the country and to its Republican Party.

    -- Lawrence Wilkerson
    The Truth About Richard Bruce Cheney - The Washington Note

    So, for all you torture supporters... it was actually the results of torture, that as most military and CIA experts tell us was not factual, that was used by Bush and Cheeney to convince (as in lie!) the American people, to allow them to invade a country that did not do anything to us.

    This too, is very old news.

    How many Americans have now been killed in Bush and Cheeney's illegal War of Choice?
    Thank You Barack Obama for Restoring Honor To The Presidency.
    President Obama will rank as one of our greatest presidents!

  8. #148
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Yes, al Libi, who I've mentioned before, is an example of using misinformation gained from torture. Torture is good for this because the person being tortured will say anything. But it is not so good at getting real intel. And so far, the examples the adminsitration presented proved much less than credible.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #149
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by jambalaya View Post
    I've beent through this discussion before including the Japanese incidents I see you citing below. The Japanese soldiers involved were prosecuted for a number of different torture activities one of which included water boarding. They did far worse things to the American soldiers they had captured including beating the hell out of them. The Japenese soldiers were prosecuted for torture not simply waterboarding.
    Yes, they were. And believe it or not, you can do more than one wrong thing. But they were also tried for waterboarding, which was defined as torture. Because they did other things also defined as torture doesn't change that.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  10. #150
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    [B]I thought I looked at your profile awhile ago. I don't recall seeing "comedien" as your occupation. But, my eyes are starting to fail me.

    If you're looking to play ball.... It's been established that torture orders came down from Rummy, maybe even higher, thru Gen Sanchez. CIA spooks were in there directing those National Guardsmen in what to do. Those convicted were scapegoats for the likes of neo-cons Rummy, Cheeney and Bush's warped ideas of American honor.
    Uh....what? Cheney ordered the people at Abu Ghraib to leash the prisoners, treat them like dogs, take pictures, etc.?

    Interesting theory.

    Guantanamo was a disaster. Perhaps you read about all the admin Republican attorneys and judges resigning over it?
    I've also read about all the Democrats keeping it open. I've also read about someplace called Bagram AFB, which is "worse" than Gitmo in every way that matters. Somewhat surprisingly, most people who excoriated Bush for Gitmo neither know nor give a **** about Bagram. First among those is President Obama, whose DoJ is fighting as hard as it can to deny those detained in Bagram the ability to challenge their detention in court.

    In fact, Obama won a big victory there just two weeks ago. Thanks to that, detainees who have sat there for seven years without access to counsel or a courtroom will continue to be detained indefinitely.

    Somewhat surprisingly, I don't see a single mention of that anywhere on the forum, nor do I hear calls from people like you for Obama to be impeached over this. I wonder why?


    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    Both. They are not mutually exclusive positions.

    Isn’t better to use a realistic scenario to exercise thought? Further, as the “ticking time bomb”, has been used as “THEE excuse” for torture, (thank you ADK), it’s disingenuous. It reminds me of children going to the outer reaches of logic in order to wring something from their parents.
    How is it disingenuous? It's the "outer reach" of logic because that's the point. If you think that torture is acceptable in the ticking time bomb scenario but not in day to day use, then that forces you to examine where you draw your boundaries.

    Sorry to repeat myself, but the lines are drawn before the question is asked. Those of us against torture are against it. We don’t want our government acting illegally for any reason. Period. And those who think it’s ok to torture under the ticking time bomb want to punish the person and the scenario makes little or no difference.

    What baffles me is that if Conservatives are so afraid of government power, one would think they’d be afraid of a President who overrides the law to approves torture.
    What makes you think that recognition that torture is sometimes acceptable is exclusively (or even mostly) a conservative thing? The number of people who are opposed to torture in all scenarios is much smaller than you might think. Just 25% of people believe that torture is never acceptable. 58% of Democrats agree that it's justifiable in at least some situations.

    Public Remains Divided Over Use of Torture: Overview - Pew Research Center for the People & the Press

    You might be someone who has sat down and examined the logic behind your opposition to torture from various angles, concluding that it's never justifiable. That's absolutely fine. The point of thought exercises like the ticking time bomb scenario is to encourage that same level of introspection among the majority of people who have not examined the rationale behind their stance on torture.

    Comparing cookies, insects or embarrassment to the simulation of drowning, which is completely believable by the person experiencing it so it is not a simulation to them, is a false equivalency. Fear of death is everyone’s weakness and as an interrogation policy it’s lazy and worse, ineffective.
    Are you're saying that you don't have a problem with the use of things like insects and embarrassment, which were the subject of that recent report on interrogation practices?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Page 15 of 32 FirstFirst ... 5131415161725 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •