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Thread: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

  1. #131
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I heard a guy say the it was raining outside. It was raining heavily, but someone said he questioned that. He was told to look out the window, but the fellow said it was subjective. It was clearly raining, but that didn't seem to sway the fellow. So we got our rain coats on and let him get soaked.

    There's more than enough evidence:

    US official admits waterboarding presently illegal | World news | guardian.co.uk
    An unnamed official giving his opinion without saying what exactly makes it illegal does not constitute a legal argument. In fact your article clearly states that there was not yet signed legislation making waterboarding illegal, that a bill passed congress, but did not have the necessary votes to override the President's certain veto. Furthermore; even if that legislation was not vetoed we have this little thing in this country about the unconstitutonality of ex-post facto prosecution.

    Again the waterboarding used by the Japanese was not the same type of waterboarding that we use and the Sheriff was not convicted of torture he was convicted of violating defendants civil rights by coercing confessions from them.

    Lists the two irrelevant cases involving Japanese war criminals and Sheriiff Parker.

    In the legality section it lists the same two useless subjective definitions of torture.

    Cites the subjective U.N. definition of torture, and the irrelevant opinions of the U.N. Committee Against Torture and the Chilean Commission on Political Imprisonment and Torture, neither of whose opinions have the force of international law let alone U.S. domestic law.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    According to the US government, waterboarding is torture. W ehave prosecuted civilians and people in our military for using waterboarding in the past.
    Calling waterboarding or anything for that matter torture does not equate to illegal. Smacking you on the hand with a ruler while I make you sit in an elementary school desk that was way too small for you would be torture too. In affect what the various laws do is ruled on what actions are acceptable. Waterboarding falls into a bit of a gray area. Sure there may be some international law which calls it illegal but it maybe not something we are a signatory too. Geneva I do not think addresses waterboarding specifically just torture in a general sense for the most part. I don't have a problem with selective use of the technique in war. Call me crazy but I can think of a lot worse things.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by jambalaya View Post
    Calling waterboarding or anything for that matter torture does not equate to illegal. Smacking you on the hand with a ruler while I make you sit in an elementary school desk that was way too small for you would be torture too. In affect what the various laws do is ruled on what actions are acceptable. Waterboarding falls into a bit of a gray area. Sure there may be some international law which calls it illegal but it maybe not something we are a signatory too. Geneva I do not think addresses waterboarding specifically just torture in a general sense for the most part. I don't have a problem with selective use of the technique in war. Call me crazy but I can think of a lot worse things.
    No, it really deosn't fall into any gray area. We've denounced it when others have done it, and we have prosecuted people for doing it. There is nothing gray about it. And you personally having a problem with it or not doesn't change that. There are people who don't have a problem with beheading, but that would make any less illegal and wrong.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    An unnamed official giving his opinion without saying what exactly makes it illegal does not constitute a legal argument. In fact your article clearly states that there was not yet signed legislation making waterboarding illegal, that a bill passed congress, but did not have the necessary votes to override the President's certain veto. Furthermore; even if that legislation was not vetoed we have this little thing in this country about the unconstitutonality of ex-post facto prosecution.



    Again the waterboarding used by the Japanese was not the same type of waterboarding that we use and the Sheriff was not convicted of torture he was convicted of violating defendants civil rights by coercing confessions from them.



    Lists the two irrelevant cases involving Japanese war criminals and Sheriiff Parker.



    In the legality section it lists the same two useless subjective definitions of torture.



    Cites the subjective U.N. definition of torture, and the irrelevant opinions of the U.N. Committee Against Torture and the Chilean Commission on Political Imprisonment and Torture, neither of whose opinions have the force of international law let alone U.S. domestic law.
    You're actually wrong about a couple of things. The water boarding by the Japanese was the same. The minor differences don't amount to anything that would make them not the same. This is not as subjective as you like to think. Waterboarding has always been considered part of the definition.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You're actually wrong about a couple of things. The water boarding by the Japanese was the same. The minor differences don't amount to anything that would make them not the same.
    lol the Japanese forced the victim to drink the water until their stomach descended and then beat on the descended stomachs.

    This is not as subjective as you like to think. Waterboarding has always been considered part of the definition.
    The international and domestic definitions of torture are completely subjective because "severe" is a subjective term, learn the definition of the word subjective and then get back to me.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    lol the Japanese forced the victim to drink the water until their stomach descended and then beat on the descended stomachs.



    The international and domestic definitions of torture are completely subjective because "severe" is a subjective term, learn the definition of the word subjective and then get back to me.
    Not true. I have a first hand account:

    my face was covered by a cloth and a tap feeding a hose-pipe was turned on.

    Waterboarding: the most horrific experience of my life

    From that article:

    In case anyone is still in doubt whether the water torture is, or is not, torture I shall refer to a Japanese Army document, which is authoritative. I have an extract from the Japanese Secret War Service Guide, headed '”Fundamental Rules for Interrogating War Prisoners”. This was probably issued in the Kwantung Army in Manchuria in 1938. In the list of “official” tortures item No 3 reads: “Putting the person interrogated on his back (it is advisable to raise the feet a little) and dripping water into the nose and mouth simultaneously.” A later section draws attention to the importance of minimising the disturbance caused by victims' screams.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by soccerboy22 View Post
    I agree with Aunt Spiker. If my family was in danger I would not waterboard anyone. I would find another way to save them. This is because I love my country and I am not willing to torture some one in order get information from them and ruin what I believe are important values to this country.
    What a crock. It's a hypothetical situation. The only options are 1.) You waterboard to save your family 2.) Your family dies.

    Don't try to escape between the horns and come up with some "I would come up with some super clever way to save them"

    You would be waterboarding away.

    I don't think you can honestly say that you would refuse to waterboard a terrorist, not just some random guy off the street, and instead sit there and watch your wife/mother/daughter etc.. get killed or tortured
    "I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." -Jefferson

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Well okay, he admitted what we already knew. Sweet.

    W. deserved the criticism he got, Obama does as well.

    /story
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Polynikes View Post
    What a crock. It's a hypothetical situation. The only options are 1.) You waterboard to save your family 2.) Your family dies.

    Don't try to escape between the horns and come up with some "I would come up with some super clever way to save them"

    You would be waterboarding away.

    I don't think you can honestly say that you would refuse to waterboard a terrorist, not just some random guy off the street, and instead sit there and watch your wife/mother/daughter etc.. get killed or tortured
    The entire hypothetical argument has no merit whatsoever. Appeals to emotion, throwing rationality out the window, "oh my god but what if" scenarios are cheap ways to manufacture justification for unjustifiable acts.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Originally Posted by ADK_Forever
    If you're looking to play ball.... It's been established that torture orders came down from Rummy, maybe even higher, thru Gen Sanchez. CIA spooks were in there directing those National Guardsmen in what to do. Those convicted were scapegoats for the likes of neo-cons Rummy, Cheeney and Bush's warped ideas of American honor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    According to who? Common Dreams or Prison Planet?
    Is the Senate Armed Services Committee good enough for you?
    On Tuesday, the Senate Armed Services Committee released a report called "Inquiry into the Treatment of Detainees in U.S. Custody" that traces the genesis of the Bush administration's torture program to late 2001. You can download the entire report here, but below Salon has reproduced pages 41 and 42, which (despite redactions) describe pressure from Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz to use harsh interrogation techniques on detainees at Guantanamo Bay, as well as pressure from Washington to produce intelligence linking al-Qaida to Iraq.

    (You can also read about Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's role in promoting harsh interrogation techniques here, and read about how the Bush administration began planning for torture here.)
    "Wolfowitz said GTMO should use more aggressive interrogation techniques" - Torture - Salon.com

    As explained in Chapter 1, "Standard Operating Procedure," some of the 279 photos and 19 videos in the archive depict controversial interrogation tactics employed in cellblock 1A. Among the examples of abuse on display in the photos were techniques sanctioned by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld for use on "unlawful enemy combatants" in the "war on terror." These include forced nudity, the use of dogs to terrorize prisoners, keeping prisoners in stress positions -- physically uncomfortable poses of various types -- for many hours, and varieties of sleep deprivation. Some of these techniques migrated from Guantánamo and Afghanistan to Iraq in 2003. (The abuse depicted in the Abu Ghraib photos did not occur during interrogation sessions, but in some cases military guards allege they were encouraged to "soften up" detainees for interrogation by higher-ranking military intelligence officers.)
    This article is a very nice detailed summary of what led to the abuses at Abu Ghraib.
    The Abu Ghraib files - Torture - Salon.com

    This is all very old news. And one of the many nails in the Bush and Cheeney coffin labeled The Worst President in History.

    This latest admission of Bush that he did indeed order illegal torture could be used to prosecute him for War Crimes and treason... if only Obama had the balls to go after him.
    Thank You Barack Obama for Restoring Honor To The Presidency.
    President Obama will rank as one of our greatest presidents!

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