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Thread: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I'm sorry but your article is weak.

    Three major treaties that the United States has signed and unambiguously ratified prohibit the United States from subjecting prisoners in the War on Terror to this kind of treatment. First, Common Article 3 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, which the Senate unanimously ratified in 1955, prohibits the parties to the treaty from acts upon prisoners including “violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; . . . outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment.”[18] Second, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which the Senate ratified in 1992, states that “[n]o one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.”[19] Third, the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment, which the Senate ratified in 1994, provides that “[e]ach State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction,”[20] and that “[e]ach State Party shall undertake to prevent in any territory under its jurisdiction other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture . . . .”[21]
    Yes it says that torture is illegal in the United States, the only problem is that torture is defined in both the UN Convention Against Torture and domestic statute 18 U.S.C. 2340 using the subjective qualifier of "severe" mental or physical pain, once again severe is a subjective term and thus the definition of torture is subjective and a subjective definition is completely useless, once again I consider rap music to cause me severe mental harm, but is it torture to force me to listen to rap music? I think not. Using the current definitions of torture anything including offering cake and ice cream to the prisoner could be considered torture, I mean they might be vegans and the use of milk and eggs in cake&icecream might cause them severe mental pain. Those poor poor animals forced into bondage, I'm getting weepy just thinking about it. ****ing Ben&Jerry's those torturing bastards, they need to be brought before the Hague ASAP.
    Last edited by Agent Ferris; 06-04-10 at 01:52 AM.

  2. #122
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    I'm sorry but your article is weak.



    Yes it says that torture is illegal in the United States, the only problem is that torture is defined in both the UN Convention Against Torture and domestic statute 18 U.S.C. 2340 both use the subjective qualifer of "severe" mental or physical pain, once again severe is a subjective term and thus the definition of torture is subjective and a subjective definition s completely useless, once again I consider rap music to cause me severe mental harm, but is it torture to force me to listen to rap music? I think not. Using the current definitions of torture anything including offering cake and ice cream to the prisoner could be considered torture, I mean they might be vegans and the use of milk and eggs in cake&icecream might cause them severe mental pain. Those poor poor animals forced into bondage, I'm getting weepy just thinking about it. ****ing Ben&Jerry's those torturing bastards, they need to be brought before the Hague ASAP.
    The language was used to make more things illegal and not less. As noted, we have seen it as torture in the past. You and Bush and his people simply wanted to excuse breaking the law. read the entire article btw.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    So if its good enough for terrorists, then its a standard the US should live by?

    We prosecuted and hanged members of the Japanese and German armies for this as war crimes. So, you are saying, in your book that its ok to be hypocrites, war criminals and stand for nothing....

    Unbelievable.

    Sorry, my America stand is the home of the free and the BRAVE. We do not compromise what we are about. This is an act of cowardice.

    That all said, it was nice of George to confess to be a war criminal.
    What's unbelievable is the disinformation campaign I see before me.

    The Japanese did not engage in the same type of waterboarding as we do, they forced people to drink water until their stomach descended and then beat and kicked the descended stomachs until they popped.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by braindrain View Post
    While i agree that the odds of getting good info form torture, low odds are better than no odds and if I feel that I have the person responsible for taking my son and I have no other options than torture is what I will do and I will happily take responsibility for my actions both legal and more importantly to me morally.
    We received no actionable intelligence from this other than to link Iraq and Al Qaeda. We did, however, show the world that we are capable of stooping the standards of the least civilized countries of the world and showed our cowardice.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The language was used to make more things illegal and not less.
    Providing cake&icecream to the prisoner can be considered torture under the current legislation.

    As noted, we have seen it as torture in the past.
    As noted I have repeatedly requested the case summary, the case name, or the name of the U.S. soldier from the Vietnam war who was successfully prosecuted for waterboarding. I have been requesting this since that article started circling its way around the net a couple of years ago and to this day not a single person has met the challenge and provided the information.

    You and Bush and his people simply wanted to excuse breaking the law. read the entire article btw.
    I read the ****ing article it does not in any way change the fact that the international and domestic definitions of torture are completely subjective.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Providing cake&icecream to the prisoner can be considered torture under the current legislation.



    As noted I have repeatedly requested the case summary, the case name, or the name of the U.S. soldier from the Vietnam war who was successfully prosecuted for waterboarding. I have been requesting this since that article started circling its way around the net a couple of years ago and to this day not a single person has met the challenge and provided the information.



    I read the ****ing article it does not in any way change the fact that the international and domestic definitions of torture are completely subjective.
    No, you're just being silly. And rather insulting to compare cake and ice cream to waterboarding torture.

    And as I have said, there is no case study on the internet. It was after all sometime ago and not something moved on to the internet, but there is more than enough reference to it to accept that it happened. And there is no meaningful or credible objection to the claim. I see no reason not to accept it. If you have some credible source questioning it, please provide it. But until then, we have plenty of evidence that waterboarding was illegal during WWII, in the VN war, and in the states. It is also forbidden in the army field manual.

    And there is no honest way to make waterboarding questionable and not illegal. Like I said, you're argument is weak. Simply not wanting to see something is not considered valid argument.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, you're just being silly. And rather insulting to compare cake and ice cream to waterboarding torture.
    But what about those poor vegans? Of course feeding them cake and ice cream will cause them severe mental harm as they use products stolen from those poor animals trapped in bondage to make them. Don't you care about the chickens and the cows? In fact I think I'm having an episode just thinking about it, STOP TORTURING ME!!!

    And as I have said, there is no case study on the internet. It was after all sometime ago and not something moved on to the internet, but there is more than enough reference to it to accept that it happened.
    Bull****, I requested a case summary, the name of the case, or the name of the soldier allegedly succesfully prosecuted in the case. You have refused to provide anyone of those and if you think that counts as "enough reference" for anyone to accept your claim then you need a serious education on proper research techniques.

    And there is no meaningful or credible objection to the claim.
    Except the fact that no one seems to know where to find a case summary, the name of the case, or the name of the person allegedly prosecuted.

    Nope, no reason whatsoever to object to the credibility of the claim.

    Hay there once was this guy, a soldier in Vietnam who was prosecuted for waterboarding but he got off because the judge determined that water boarding wasn't torture. But sorry I can't provide a case summary, the name of the case, or the name of the soldier involved.


    I see no reason not to accept it.
    Then you see no reason to object to the claim that I just made. They both have equal credibility.

    If you have some credible source questioning it, please provide it.
    I'm questioning it. I would like to see a scrap of evidence that such a case ever took place.

    But until then, we have plenty of evidence that waterboarding was illegal during WWII,
    Not the same type of waterboarding.

    in the VN war,
    Then give me case summary, the name of the case, or the name of the ****ing soldier.

    and in the states.
    Once again IIRC the Sheriff was prosecuted for corruption not for waterboarding specifically.

    It is also forbidden in the army field manual.
    The army field manual =/= law. The CIA is allowed to do a lot of things that regular soldiers aren't; such as, not wearing a uniform and infiltrating behind enemy lines.

    And there is no honest way to make waterboarding questionable and not illegal. Like I said, you're argument is weak. Simply not wanting to see something is not considered valid argument.
    You have in no way proven that waterboarding is illegal nor have you even proved that it qualifies as torture, because you can't, because the definition of torture as it currently stands is entirely subjective.
    Last edited by Agent Ferris; 06-04-10 at 02:18 AM.

  8. #128
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    I heard a guy say the it was raining outside. It was raining heavily, but someone said he questioned that. He was told to look out the window, but the fellow said it was subjective. It was clearly raining, but that didn't seem to sway the fellow. So we got our rain coats on and let him get soaked.

    There's more than enough evidence:

    US official admits waterboarding presently illegal | World news | guardian.co.uk

    Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime - washingtonpost.com

    Torture by Any Other Name

    Waterboarding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Debate on waterboarding is artificial; it is clearly torture - International Center for Transitional Justice

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    The odds of torture giving you good, and accurate information, is quite low. Like I said, they are more likely to admit to things they didn't do, or lie to make the pain stop than give you solid information. Not to mention you know that its illegal. Interrogation is different than torture, I'm fine with interrogation, I'm not okay with torture. I'm not willing to risk human lives on bad information because of the ineffective policy of torture.
    However the line between what's interrogation and what's torture is an absolutely artificial one with what consistutes each being relatively arbitrary in nature.

    And I'm sorry that you said it ONLY gives bad information. I'm sorry you over exaggerated the case and got called on it. Yes, its an inefficient means of getting information. That does not mean it does not have its uses or benefits. A truck is an inefficient means of moving from one place to another in regards to gas, however when you know you're going to be transporting a number of large things that inefficiency is worth it due to the benefits. Torturing every random person that we capture in the field or arrest would be extremely inefficient with little tangible gain, there's no reason to do it...as I said earlier. However with a target who is clearly and obviously connected and has an extremely high probability of having useful or actionable intelligence the likelihood that legitimate, useful information will be extracted along with the bad goes up.

    Also we are preparing them for torture, because well it happens. If they get captured we want our soldiers to be prepared for the worst.
    Prepared for the worst to do what? We want to torture our soldiers so they're prepared to be tortured? Prepared for what? When you prepare someone for something its do to a certain thing. You prepare for a football game to learn how to defend the other team. You prepare for a test to be able to correctly answer questions. You prepare for an interview to give the best impression. You prepare for a date to make sure you look good to attract the woman.

    What are we preparing them FOR in regards to waterboarding them, etc?

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I am implying interrogation, he deserves to be interrogated by the harshest methods available.

    And yes, I do want to get reliable and true evidence in order to save Americans. Non American citizens who have committed war crimes and the most atrocious acts of terrorism deserve absolutely no rights.

    I can have both goals, I want justice and security. Not justice through torture, but security through harsh interrogation and justice through making the remainder of his existence a living hell.
    All your words show your #1 priority is to hurt the prisoner, giving you permission to torture him. Getting any info from him is secondary.

    You have it assbackwards.
    Thank You Barack Obama for Restoring Honor To The Presidency.
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