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Thread: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    I suppose we just look at things differently. If someone had my son and I thought that torture might in anyway get him back than that is what I would do. If I thought that torturing the person was going to be something that I couldnt live with than I would still go ahead and do it and if I found I couldnt live with it than I would take my own life happily knowning that I did every thing possible to save my sons life. The one thing that I know I could never live with is not doing what ever I could do to keep my son from harm. If he is ok everything else is a minor concern.
    President Franklin Roosevelt eulogized a fallen American Soldier by saying, “He stands in the unbroken line of patriots who have dared to die [that] freedom might live, and grow, and increase its blessings. Freedom lives, and through it he lives--in a way that humbles the undertakings of most men."

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Your first line is absolutely positively false and makes no sense. "Torture" both the intense kind, the middle of the road kind, and the kind you see depicted in interrogation rooms in Law and Order and NCIS are, to varying degrees, considered to be average to poor means of getting good information in regards to efficiency, with the amount of pain generally decreasing the efficiency of the information. However to say that the ONLY thing one will get is bad information is patentedly false and if it was true our military would have a LOT to answer for. Why? Because we perform much of this "Torture" on some of our men and women in the armed forces. What exactly are we preparing them to "Withstand" if torture absolutely positively ALWAYS gives bad information. Why should we train them to withstand torture so as to hold out on giving information if its impossible for said information to ever be given because torture doesn't work?
    The odds of torture giving you good, and accurate information, is quite low. Like I said, they are more likely to admit to things they didn't do, or lie to make the pain stop than give you solid information. Not to mention you know that its illegal. Interrogation is different than torture, I'm fine with interrogation, I'm not okay with torture. I'm not willing to risk human lives on bad information because of the ineffective policy of torture.

    Also we are preparing them for torture, because well it happens. If they get captured we want our soldiers to be prepared for the worst.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    I don't consider waterboarding to cause intense pain. The definitions of torture of the U.N. and the U.S. define torture using the subjective qualifier of "severe" mental or physical pain, it is subjective thus open to interpretation and useless. I consider rap music to cause me sever mental pain, but does that make it torture? Get some meaningful legal definitions of what constitutes torture and then we'll talk.
    I'm sorry, but that's weak.

    Waterboarding is Illegal - Washington University Law Review

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by braindrain View Post
    I suppose we just look at things differently. If someone had my son and I thought that torture might in anyway get him back than that is what I would do. If I thought that torturing the person was going to be something that I couldnt live with than I would still go ahead and do it and if I found I couldnt live with it than I would take my own life happily knowning that I did every thing possible to save my sons life. The one thing that I know I could never live with is not doing what ever I could do to keep my son from harm. If he is ok everything else is a minor concern.
    And what if you were wrong, you got misinformation, and this cost you time and the life of your son?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    When did I say it would be the first thing I did because it wouldnt. It would be the last thing I would do but if it was the last chance I had than you better belive I would most certinley do it. And not think twice.
    President Franklin Roosevelt eulogized a fallen American Soldier by saying, “He stands in the unbroken line of patriots who have dared to die [that] freedom might live, and grow, and increase its blessings. Freedom lives, and through it he lives--in a way that humbles the undertakings of most men."

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Actually no.
    Boo,

    Actually, yes...

    See how unnecessary that was? Please refrain from making empty assertions, as they add nothing to the discussion.

    A stopped clock is right twice a day, but you wouldn't argue it works.
    A spurious analogy that falsely assumes torture can only obtain intelligence by pure chance. You cannot definitively claim this is or would be the case - you can only assume so.

    At any time, you might get something, but that wouldn't make it effective. Nor does it mean you wouldn't get the same intel, or better with another method. The problems associated with torture, misinformation, and the mroal strain, make something so ineffective as it has proven to be, not worth using. If it is wrong nine times, and we use that wrong intel, as we have (see al Libib), getting it right once wouldn't be enough to make it valid.
    Suppose you're the President and the CIA captures a high level AQ commander. They use all available interrogation methods except "torture" and nothing is working. The chief interrogator comes to you, the President, and says, "Sir, we've tried everything but nothing is working. We know this guy has actionable intelligence that could severely compromise AQ's ability to attack American interests at home and abroad but we've run out of options. Sir, we think we can get him to talk but we need to apply some additional pressure, perhaps waterboarding or prolonged food and sleep deprivation, maybe both. We need your permission to proceed."

    What is your response? I'm genuinely curious to know what you would do.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by braindrain View Post
    When did I say it would be the first thing I did because it wouldnt. It would be the last thing I would do but if it was the last chance I had than you better belive I would most certinley do it. And not think twice.
    I don't recall using the word first. But as torture is not likely to get you want you want, and more likely to get you misinformation, I don't see any other reason for doing it. We may well feel like it. But more likely we would have the wrong person, and not get what we're after.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    While i agree that the odds of getting good info form torture, low odds are better than no odds and if I feel that I have the person responsible for taking my son and I have no other options than torture is what I will do and I will happily take responsibility for my actions both legal and more importantly to me morally.
    President Franklin Roosevelt eulogized a fallen American Soldier by saying, “He stands in the unbroken line of patriots who have dared to die [that] freedom might live, and grow, and increase its blessings. Freedom lives, and through it he lives--in a way that humbles the undertakings of most men."

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by braindrain View Post
    While i agree that the odds of getting good info form torture, low odds are better than no odds and if I feel that I have the person responsible for taking my son and I have no other options than torture is what I will do and I will happily take responsibility for my actions both legal and more importantly to me morally.
    You and many others might well do so, but that doesn't mean it would be effective or anything more than punishing someone who may or may not be the person you want. I think this is why we have laws. What we would do needs to be tempered by something more reasonable and less emotional. Hard to be completely unemotional, but laws help us step back and seek other methods.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Our enemy waterboards? o.O
    So if its good enough for terrorists, then its a standard the US should live by?

    We prosecuted and hanged members of the Japanese and German armies for this as war crimes. So, you are saying, in your book that its ok to be hypocrites, war criminals and stand for nothing....

    Unbelievable.

    Sorry, my America stand is the home of the free and the BRAVE. We do not compromise what we are about. This is an act of cowardice.

    That all said, it was nice of George to confess to be a war criminal.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 06-04-10 at 01:51 AM.

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