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Thread: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Torturing someone to get info from them will only get you one thing, bad information. They'll say anything to make it stop. Torturing is immoral, and ineffective, we shouldn't do it, and we have better ways to get good info from people.
    Your first line is absolutely positively false and makes no sense. "Torture" both the intense kind, the middle of the road kind, and the kind you see depicted in interrogation rooms in Law and Order and NCIS are, to varying degrees, considered to be average to poor means of getting good information in regards to efficiency, with the amount of pain generally decreasing the efficiency of the information. However to say that the ONLY thing one will get is bad information is patentedly false and if it was true our military would have a LOT to answer for. Why? Because we perform much of this "Torture" on some of our men and women in the armed forces. What exactly are we preparing them to "Withstand" if torture absolutely positively ALWAYS gives bad information. Why should we train them to withstand torture so as to hold out on giving information if its impossible for said information to ever be given because torture doesn't work?

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    The Taliban are terrorists, so it's not shocking what they do, especially since 9/11. The American military are not, and should not be. While I admit that sawing off someone's head is much more barbaric than waterboarding, they are both disgusting acts of cruelty. Just because something is not as cruel as the other doesn't make it okay.

    In my opinion, it is comparing firecrackers and nuclear warheads; an entirely different class of action.



    Never heard of this. Got a link?

    Yes. PolitiFact | Duncan Hunter says we have waterboarded our own military as part of training exercises


    I love how you downplay waterboarding like it's a stroll in the park.
    Several of my friends have been through it in SERE training in the military, and have told me about their experiences. They hated it, it scared the crap out of them, they were ready to comply with any demands quickly... but it did them no lasting harm. The soldiers of my acquaintance who have been waterboarded in training are very contemptous of accusations that it is "torture" and too barbaric for us to use against terrorists... I suppose I "caught their attitude" towards it.


    Now let me ask you this. Say the Taliban captured a bunch of US military personnel, and waterboarded them all to "extract information," how would you feel about it?
    I am not burdened by the need to justify myself under moral equivalency. I abhor it when the enemy kills one of our soldiers; I applaud when our soldiers kill one of the enemy. This does not mean I would consider anything and everything justified simply becasue we do it to them, it simply means that I know which side I am on.

    In point of fact "they" have done far, far worse to our captured troops on many occasions.




    PS. How in the hell can you watch that video???
    I forced myself to watch it, so that I would have a realistic appraisal of the kind of people we were up against. It was horrible and it gave me nightmares for weeks.... it also gave me perspective on just how horrible the people we are fighting can be. Our halos may be a bit rusty and tilted to one side, but if you watch that horrid video all the way through, with the sound ON, you will be confronted by the fact that the side of greatest evil is most definately them and not us.


    Try it, it might give you a whole new outlook on this conflict. Reality in the raw will tend to do that.
    Last edited by Goshin; 06-03-10 at 11:55 PM.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Never heard of this. Got a link?
    I believe check into SERE school as I believe that's where it occurs.

    I love how you downplay waterboarding like it's a stroll in the park.
    In the torture world I'd say its more like a brisk jog/run through the park. Strenuous, more than a simple walk, but definitely not a marathon.

    Granted, things are relative. Someone may have some cheese dip that has some jalapeño ppers in it and go "Wow that's spicey". However if they've just had Buffalo Wings soaked in habanero pepper juices or Phall Curry (Considered possibly the hottest curry in the world), then your "spicey" cheese is likely going to be looked at as far more mild than it did when looking at it alone.

    Now let me ask you this. Say the Taliban captured a bunch of US military personnel, and waterboarded them all to "extract information," how would you feel about it?
    I'd say I'd be happy that they're going for likely far, far less severe and lifetime impacting forms of "torture" on our men and women then they are likely doing currently.

    I'd prefer that they not torture our people at all, and I would be ABSOLUTELY against us waterboarding if they weren't...however they do, so frankly if it was a choice between waterboarding or how they likely torture our men and women then I'd say go grab the water.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    I was always in the middle with the waterboarding policy debate.

    That being said, I see a number of posts within the first page that I thought were the most true: 1) his personal stance with how to respond to another President's actions are admirable 2) His former staff are the protectors of his legacy and have done enough work to criticize various aspects of the current administration, the Democratic party platform, and presenting their view of proper policy.
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    This I just cant understand. You say that you wouldnt torture someone to save a loved on because it would haunt you the rest of your life but say that you would give your live for that same person. So you are willing to be dead to save someone but not haunted for the rest of your life. Some how I find that really hard to belive. Giving your life to save someone is the ultimate sacrifice and you say you are willing to do that but not willing to do something that would give you bad dreams and trouble you for the rest of your life. Sounds to me like either you are either (A) not being honest, (B) not really thinking this all the way through or (C) you are just young and dont havent had to deal with to much life or death isuess.
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Ya I mentioned that, this assertion as been thrown around a lot and to this day after repeated request no one can provide a case summary, the name of the case, or even the name of the soldier in question. Perhaps you'll have better luck than the rest of the people who all supplied the same un-cited article making the same unsubstantiated claims.
    Wasn't an internet then. Still, we have history:

    "The soldier who participated in water torture in January 1968 was court-martialed within one month after the photos appeared in The Washington Post, and he was drummed out of the Army," recounted Darius Rejali, a political science professor at Reed College.

    History of an Interrogation Technique: Water Boarding - ABC News



    On Jan. 21, 1968, The Washington Post ran a front-page photo of a U.S. soldier supervising the waterboarding of a captured North Vietnamese soldier. The caption said the technique induced "a flooding sense of suffocation and drowning, meant to make him talk." The picture led to an Army investigation and, two months later, the court martial of the soldier.

    Waterboarding: A Tortured History : NPR

    “We prosecuted our own soldiers for using it in Vietnam,” Mr. Holder said. “Waterboarding is torture.”

    In the view of many historians and legal authorities, Mr. Holder was merely admitting the obvious. He was agreeing with the clear position of his boss-to-be, President-elect Barack Obama, and he was giving an answer that almost certainly was necessary to win confirmation.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/17/us.../17detain.html

    After World War II, U.S. military commissions prosecuted several Japanese soldiers for subjecting U.S. soldiers to waterboarding, according to Human Rights Watch. In 1968, a U.S. soldier was court-martialed for water boarding a Vietnamese prisoner.

    Waterboarding: Interrogation Or Torture? - CBS News

    The is listed as withheld on this site:

    http://usiraq.procon.org/sourcefiles...erboarding.pdf


    We might have to do something more extensive than can be done on the internet right now, but where are the vocies challenging this? Any serious voices doubtiung this? And no, Glen Beck wouldn't count.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by braindrain View Post
    This I just cant understand. You say that you wouldnt torture someone to save a loved on because it would haunt you the rest of your life but say that you would give your live for that same person. So you are willing to be dead to save someone but not haunted for the rest of your life. Some how I find that really hard to belive. Giving your life to save someone is the ultimate sacrifice and you say you are willing to do that but not willing to do something that would give you bad dreams and trouble you for the rest of your life. Sounds to me like either you are either (A) not being honest, (B) not really thinking this all the way through or (C) you are just young and dont havent had to deal with to much life or death isuess.
    I am going to assume that was directed at me since I said I would give my life to save a loved one, but not torture some one. And yes I am being honest when I say that. I would not be able to live with myself if I were to torture some one. I tend to feel guilty about the little things and so something big like torturing some one would mentally and physically kill me. And I know that may seem like a weird thing to say, but I don't think a person could understand it by me just explaining myself over the internet. This is a type of you have to meet me in person type thing.

    As for your second comment I have actually thought it through pretty well because I was helping my girlfriend write a paper about torture last night. And I explained to her that I would not be able to live with myself if I tortured another person, which she sort of already knew, but without a doubt if I had to give my own life to save her life I would. As for you third part yes I am rather young since I will be turning 22 in October, but sadly I have had to deal with some life and death issues. The most recent being my best friend committing suicide which lead to me thinking about life and I honestly feel more comfortable with the idea that in order to save a loved one I am willing to risk my own life.

    As I said before I am well aware that my stance of not torturing, but willing to give my own life instead confuses and throws a lot of people off. I just feel you would understand why I feel the way I do if you knew me personally. There are some things that just cannot be explained over the internet.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    I have been to SERE level 3 which is the least enjoyable of all the SERE classes and they do not do waterboarding there. Now I cant say if they did in the past or not but anyone who tells you that they were waterboarded at SERE and it was in the last 8 years or so than they are straight up BSing you. I do not belive there is anywhere in the US military in the last ten years atleast that waterboards thier students.
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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    torture- the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure- From the Webster dictionary.

    Waterboarding is torture, and torture is not an effective means to get information out of somebody. It's just a fact, they will say anything to make the pain go away.
    I don't consider waterboarding to cause intense pain. The definitions of torture of the U.N. and the U.S. define torture using the subjective qualifier of "severe" mental or physical pain, it is subjective thus open to interpretation and useless. I consider rap music to cause me sever mental pain, but does that make it torture? Get some meaningful legal definitions of what constitutes torture and then we'll talk.

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    Re: Former President George W. Bush: We waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed,

    Quote Originally Posted by braindrain View Post
    I have been to SERE level 3 which is the least enjoyable of all the SERE classes and they do not do waterboarding there. Now I cant say if they did in the past or not but anyone who tells you that they were waterboarded at SERE and it was in the last 8 years or so than they are straight up BSing you. I do not belive there is anywhere in the US military in the last ten years atleast that waterboards thier students.
    Even if they did, the experience wouldn't quite be the same as you know you are not in the hands of the actual enemy. Not that it wouldn't be uncomfortable enough to let you know what to expect. It just wouldn't be exactly the same.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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