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Thread: Supreme Court: Suspects must invoke right to remain silent in interrogations

  1. #161
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    Re: Supreme Court Narrows Miranda Rights, Keeps Michigan Convict in Prison

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Exactly. So when one box is checked while the other isn't, it means that the confirmation of completion has failed somewhere. Whether that be because of oversight on the part of the cop filling out the form by having not checked the box or because of some maintenance tech having fibbed a bit on his work order...who knows? What we do know is that a mechanism was set in place for important maintenance to be performed and then have its performance confirmed and that mechanism failed so the entire process now falls under suspicion.

    Shadow of a doubt creeping right on in...
    I think you are confused.
    The maintenance record is posted at the instrument site. Signed by the FTA Branch individual who performed the maintenance.
    The form has a section on it to show maintenance had been completed by FTA Branch and a date is intered into a place. However, there a box next to said portion of the form (because its a multi-use form for both blood and breath, blood not needing maintenance under this form). Box is not inked in, but date for maintenance is filled out.
    The same maintenance record that is scanned is published on public website.
    The argument was brought in that the maintenance could not be verified because the ink was not filled in the box.
    The judge accepts that the form completed by the operator does not show the maintenance has been completed, even though it is evident that the operator intended to do so via putting the information on the box. (fair enough).
    The judge then does not allow the prosecution to otherwise show that the maintenance has been completed, by presenting the same document that the operator used to verify that maintenance has been completed.

    This is a BS technicality, that would have never held up in superior court, or under most any other judge.

    If anything, the prosecuting DA could have appealed the case and won, but then they have to determine whether such an appeal is worth the time, money put in by the court to find this individual guilty. In this case it wasn't, and I agree.
    Many times a DA will even mention that they can win an appeal on a case that is lost by a sheep judge, and I say I could give a **** less.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  2. #162
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    Re: Supreme Court: Suspects must invoke right to remain silent in interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    This ruling is just obnoxious. If a suspect refuses to speak a word after being advised of their right to remain silent, its clear that they are invoking the right.
    Just as clearly, after he does this and begins talking (or talking again) he has given up that right.
    Nothing to see here. move along.

  3. #163
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    Re: Supreme Court: Suspects must invoke right to remain silent in interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Just as clearly, after he does this and begins talking (or talking again) he has given up that right.
    Nothing to see here. move along.
    Exactly. At what point shall the line be drawn?
    I say.. as the supreme court says, when you are read your rights, and state you understand them, and at that time you can either state that you wish to not answer any questions or have an attorney present.

    The argument that speaking to inform that you do not wish to answer questions is a violation of their 5th amendment rights is absolute bull****, and quite embarrassing to have a member of the Supreme Court (guardians of the constitution) to suggest such a silly ass thing. That argument is not based upon the constitution at all, but based upon the miranda decisions poor adaptation of words that states "right to remain silent" which the supreme court has since even acknowledged that does not exist in that exact manner.

    I mean, sure, you have the right to remail silent, but when asked booking questions if you still decide to remain silent, don't complain like a bitch when nobody releases you on bond or continues the arrest process (finger print, photograph, etc) because you refuse to answer the necessary booking questions.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  4. #164
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    Re: Supreme Court Narrows Miranda Rights, Keeps Michigan Convict in Prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    I think you are confused.
    The maintenance record is posted at the instrument site. Signed by the FTA Branch individual who performed the maintenance.
    The form has a section on it to show maintenance had been completed by FTA Branch and a date is intered into a place. However, there a box next to said portion of the form (because its a multi-use form for both blood and breath, blood not needing maintenance under this form). Box is not inked in, but date for maintenance is filled out.
    The same maintenance record that is scanned is published on public website.
    The argument was brought in that the maintenance could not be verified because the ink was not filled in the box.
    The judge accepts that the form completed by the operator does not show the maintenance has been completed, even though it is evident that the operator intended to do so via putting the information on the box. (fair enough).
    The judge then does not allow the prosecution to otherwise show that the maintenance has been completed, by presenting the same document that the operator used to verify that maintenance has been completed.

    This is a BS technicality, that would have never held up in superior court, or under most any other judge.

    If anything, the prosecuting DA could have appealed the case and won, but then they have to determine whether such an appeal is worth the time, money put in by the court to find this individual guilty. In this case it wasn't, and I agree.
    Many times a DA will even mention that they can win an appeal on a case that is lost by a sheep judge, and I say I could give a **** less.
    I understand you just fine. But here's the issue: all of those processes are mechanisms by which to determine that procedures were followed and to dispel all doubts that there was any negligence anywhere in the process. You may know that everything was on the up and up in the process but that means jack **** to a man standing in front of a judge under the threat of $10k in fines and other liberties being dispelled as punishment. Think of it this way...if you stop someone and they haven't got their insurance card, their driver's license, and an outdated registration in their car, you don't care if they say "Oh, I was detailing my car and all that stuff I do have, it's just sitting on a box in the garage because I forgot to put it back in the glove box." They may very well have all of that but that's information you need to verify that they are legal. And the issue now is that you have a responsibility to remove that possibly unsafe, uninsured, and unlicensed driver off the road at 10:30PM on a Saturday night. Same thing with that box on that form...it needs to be filled in a certain way and if it's not, then you lose the justification for detaining that suspect because you obviously can't keep your own house in order so what makes the people think you have any business taking responsibility for "rehabilitating" or "punishing" anyone else?

  5. #165
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    Re: Supreme Court Narrows Miranda Rights, Keeps Michigan Convict in Prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    However, if the maintenance records are public information, posted on a publicly accessible website, where the maintenance sheet is signed by the maintainor of said instrument, then I don't understand what the problem is there.

    But, like I said, the judge was a sheep in the courtroom.
    Yeah, from what you've said, I tend to agree in this instance.

    Judges make mistakes all the time. Usually they err on the other side, against defendants.

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    Re: Supreme Court Narrows Miranda Rights, Keeps Michigan Convict in Prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    Yeah, from what you've said, I tend to agree in this instance.

    Judges make mistakes all the time. Usually they err on the other side, against defendants.
    Except here. There err on the side for the defendants. Not just in this case, but in several.

    We have judges that come down off the bench to give a hug to the defendant after the defendant pleas guilty and then gives a sob story to the judge for leiniency.

    I mean, I have no problem with the err on the side of the defendant part, thats the way it should be. But the old "hug a thug" thing kinda pisses me off.

    BTW: Hug a thug judge is also no longer on the bench.

    The problem is that in district court you get loons who have no clue what they are doing.
    In superior court, you get judges who know their ****.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  7. #167
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    Re: Supreme Court Narrows Miranda Rights, Keeps Michigan Convict in Prison

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I understand you just fine. But here's the issue: all of those processes are mechanisms by which to determine that procedures were followed and to dispel all doubts that there was any negligence anywhere in the process. You may know that everything was on the up and up in the process but that means jack **** to a man standing in front of a judge under the threat of $10k in fines and other liberties being dispelled as punishment. Think of it this way...if you stop someone and they haven't got their insurance card, their driver's license, and an outdated registration in their car, you don't care if they say "Oh, I was detailing my car and all that stuff I do have, it's just sitting on a box in the garage because I forgot to put it back in the glove box." They may very well have all of that but that's information you need to verify that they are legal. And the issue now is that you have a responsibility to remove that possibly unsafe, uninsured, and unlicensed driver off the road at 10:30PM on a Saturday night. Same thing with that box on that form...it needs to be filled in a certain way and if it's not, then you lose the justification for detaining that suspect because you obviously can't keep your own house in order so what makes the people think you have any business taking responsibility for "rehabilitating" or "punishing" anyone else?
    Because Fact, not Appearance, is what matters in court.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  8. #168
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    Re: Supreme Court Narrows Miranda Rights, Keeps Michigan Convict in Prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Because Fact, not Appearance, is what matters in court.
    And the FACT is, someone, somewhere in the procedural chain didn't do what they were supposed to do as evidenced by the form not being filled out properly. And because of that, doubt is cast on the entire case of the State, especially considering it was a cornerstone piece of evidence.

    If you can't follow your own procedures, you have no business taking responsibility for enforcing the laws to which those procedures pertain. That's the reasoning.

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    Re: Supreme Court Narrows Miranda Rights, Keeps Michigan Convict in Prison

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    And the FACT is, someone, somewhere in the procedural chain didn't do what they were supposed to do as evidenced by the form not being filled out properly. And because of that, doubt is cast on the entire case of the State, especially considering it was a cornerstone piece of evidence.

    If you can't follow your own procedures, you have no business taking responsibility for enforcing the laws to which those procedures pertain. That's the reasoning.
    So I'll mark you down as a supporter of BS technicalities that have no bearing on the evidence of the case.
    Gotcha.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Supreme Court Narrows Miranda Rights, Keeps Michigan Convict in Prison

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    So I'll mark you down as a supporter of BS technicalities that have no bearing on the evidence of the case.
    Gotcha.
    And you would be misplacing your frustration if you did. It has everything to do with the evidence of the case. The evidence submitted in the case comes in the form of that paperwork and it is imperative that it be filled out properly just like it would be for the citizen under suspicion to show his proper evidence. If the form is not completed according to procedure, then by all means, it and any fruit of that poisonous tree must be removed entirely from the evidence. At that case, the dismissal is for lack of evidence.


    Does it suck for the cop who had a clean collar otherwise? Absolutely. But the balance of power between the citizen and his government is so disparate that it is imperative the government be held to such standards in all things lest it gain too much control and abuse the authority it has.

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