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Thread: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Whats the murder rate in Africa?
    What is the poverty rate?

    How about the murder rate in Mexico?
    What is the poverty rate?

    Rio de Janeiro has the highest murder rate in the world.
    Again where in Rio do most of these murders happen? And the highest murder rate is in Joburg in South Africa last I heard if you say that Baghdad is a war zone.. if not, it is Baghdad.

    The intent of the post I responded to was to imply: Europeans good. Americans bad.
    And you threw in the race card to explain and defend the pathetic US statistics. It is not the first time you do this if I remember right. There was a debate about child mortality rates and I believe it was you or American or one of those types that automatically threw out the race card.

    I was only pointing out the facts to dispute that implication.
    What fact? That poor people tend to commit more crimes including murder? Oh what a shocker! See how easy it is to avoid the race card? Your "facts" are the usual race based right wing fear mongering crap we see on a daily basis on these boards and in the US mass media. The murder and crime rate among American with a dark skin is not because they have a dark skin, but because of the poverty said persons grow up in, the racism that keeps them in that poverty generation after generation and a justice system that does not exactly favour poor people.

    If that stings a little too much for you, then I apologize. However, remember your complaint the next time you use, "white", to describe persons's actions you disagree with.
    It does not sting me one bit, since it is you that makes a fool of yourself in a flawed attempt to defend your countries pathetic record in the western industrialized world on crime and murder statistics. Using race as an excuse is the absolute low blow of epic proportions.. why not use the jew card instead as much sense as the race card.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I wasn't sure if Adpst knew what he was talking about, regarding a racial comparison of murder rates, so I decided to do some research.

    FBI report on murders in the USA:

    Murder - Crime in the United States 2004

    Racial breakdown of America:

    Demographics of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    So in effect, 50% of murders are committed, according to FBI stats, by an ethnic group that is 12% of the general population. I should note at this point that I really hate pointing this out because it may sound racist (and I'm not)...but facts are facts. However, there could certainly be other factors not directly related to race that affect these numbers, like poverty, lack of education, involvement in gangs and drug trafficking, etc.

    Racial breakdown of England:

    Demography of England - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The most recent murder rate for England I can find is 1.37 (per 100k).
    For Europe as a whole, the murder rate is 5.4, for western/central Europe 1.5
    The most recent murder rate for USA I can find is 5.4, which is the same as Europe-as-a-whole.

    47% of those murders in America are committed by caucasians.... so the "white murder rate" in the US is roughly 2.6, which is lower than Europe-as-a-whole, about 1.7x that of Wester/Central Europe, not quite double England. It is worth noting that the murder rate for caucasian Americans is less than 1/14th of the world's top rate, which is southern Africa, as noted below.

    So America's "white murder rate" is still much higher than England's and Western Europe's, but lower than Europe as a whole. The picture that is emerging looks more like poverty is the prime factor than race, even though the raw numbers point to a vastly higher murder rates among nonwhites...
    Err, now wait a minute. First off European countries do not do their statistics according to race, so it is impossible to compare. Secondly, you say Europe as one large entity. It is not. Every country has different laws and punishments for crimes, unlike in the US where the law is pretty much uniform across the country for most crimes. Hence any comparison has to be between individual countries in Europe and the US.

    Oh and the murder rate you were looking at was for England and Wales.. not the whole country.. that stands at 2.03... yea the Northern Irish and Scots are blood thirsty bunch.

    Now, here's a list of homicide rates for various international regions, from a different source...

    List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    If you'll notice, the top rate is 37.3 in southern Africa.

    North America is 6.5 and Europe is 5.4.... comparatively speaking not a lot of difference.
    Actually these statistics mean jack ****. For one.. North America has 3 major countries. US, Canada and Mexico. Canada's murder rate is very very low, the US is so so and Mexico's are very high. Mexico´s high rate skews it way up and then Canadas low rate takes it down considerably. The same goes for Europe. European numbers include a few countries that have massively high murder rates and a huge majority of countries that have very low murder rates. Again, comparing countries individually is the only way to go.

    The single most common theme seems to be: those places with the most abject poverty and primitive living conditions, are the same places where murder rates are highest.
    Yes and that has nothing to do with race... and yet again it is not exactly right. Morrocco, Sengal, Vietnam and others are all are poor countries with low murder rates. So it is not the only factor. Culture and sadly religion also have a big impact. And then there comes reporting.. for example in India there are hundreds of thousands of "kitchen fires" that kill women each year.. they are honour killings but are registered as accidents.

    A secondary factor could be conjectured from American stats, namely that ethnic groups with the worst rates of poverty, drug use and trafficking and gang involvement are where the worst murder rates are found also.
    Still has nothing to do with the colour of their skin. It is a poverty issue and social/cultural issue. Using race is nothing but a lame excuse to avoid dealing with the real issues leading to the problem.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    I can remember hearing about someone being arrested for carrying pepper spray which I agree is ridiculous - unless of course they use it for some other reason.
    You can be arrested for carrying pepper spray/CS and charged under section 5 of the firearms act 1968 including any other gas canister or self defence method regardless of whatever excuse you give to the police. If the spray was used on a rapist or attacker and he suffered eye injuries, you could be arrested for serious assault or if he had asthma and it was induced, manslaughter.

    There is no way around it, only other "legal" (read: legislators has not gotten round to banning them yet) alternatives and because the use of them haven't been challenged in court yet, until they are I wouldn't carry it around. The only legal self defence product that can be accessed is a rape alarm, like a whistle
    Last edited by Laila; 06-06-10 at 06:56 AM.


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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    You can be arrested for carrying pepper spray/CS and charged under section 5 of the firearms act 1968 including any other gas canister or self defence method regardless of whatever excuse you give to the police. If the spray was used on a rapist or attacker and he suffered eye injuries, you could be arrested for serious assault or if he had asthma and it was induced, manslaughter.

    There is no way around it, only other "legal" (read: legislators has not gotten round to banning them yet) alternatives and because the use of them haven't been challenged in court yet, until they are I wouldn't carry it around. The only legal self defence product that can be accessed is a rape alarm, like a whistle
    Although I was surprised at the time - and pepper spray was a new invention when I was a young women, I guess the problem is that any old toe-rag can get their hands on it and so use it simply for violence.

    As far as whistles, on my self defence course I was told not to call for help as most people become afraid and ignore but better to call 'Fire!' which is more likely to get people out to see what is happening.

    I know under UK Law you can use sufficient force necessary for self defence, up to killing the person if that is needed.

    I would always advise girls to go on self defence courses. I think it is really important to be a ble to protect yourself. Possibly even more so for boys. That being said, my daughter refused to go.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    You can be arrested for carrying pepper spray/CS and charged under section 5 of the firearms act 1968 including any other gas canister or self defence method regardless of whatever excuse you give to the police. If the spray was used on a rapist or attacker and he suffered eye injuries, you could be arrested for serious assault or if he had asthma and it was induced, manslaughter.

    There is no way around it, only other "legal" (read: legislators has not gotten round to banning them yet) alternatives and because the use of them haven't been challenged in court yet, until they are I wouldn't carry it around. The only legal self defence product that can be accessed is a rape alarm, like a whistle
    That is truly appalling.


    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Although I was surprised at the time - and pepper spray was a new invention when I was a young women, I guess the problem is that any old toe-rag can get their hands on it and so use it simply for violence.

    As far as whistles, on my self defence course I was told not to call for help as most people become afraid and ignore but better to call 'Fire!' which is more likely to get people out to see what is happening.

    I know under UK Law you can use sufficient force necessary for self defence, up to killing the person if that is needed.

    I would always advise girls to go on self defence courses. I think it is really important to be a ble to protect yourself. Possibly even more so for boys. That being said, my daughter refused to go.

    And yet, addressing the bolded sentence first, you are denied the use of any effective tools in defending yourself. It is a reasonably good bet that if the attacker intends to do you serious harm, he will likely have a knife or cudgel, but you can't even carry pepperspray.
    So you can kill him if you have to, but you can't use anything but your bare hands.

    Addressing the self-defense courses.... this is a good thing, everyone should take these.... but understand that their utility is limited. Professional MMA fighters have gotten themselves killed going up against armed thugs, even
    though they train intensively as a full-time profession.

    A serious-amateur martial artist (trains 4 hours a week for 4 years, say) might handle ONE typical unarmed thug
    readily enough, (if the MA he trains in is practical), but add weapons or multiple attackers and his chances drop like a rock down a well.

    A short-course in self-defense... well if you are attacked by one unarmed thug who underestimates you and isn't
    all that tough, and doesn't have serious fighting skills on his own.... you might manage to escape... maybe.

    Another problem is that the quality and practicality of these courses vary a great deal. I've spent some time teaching short-course self-defense (SCSD) to small groups, and evaluating other SCSD programs for
    merit... and there is more horse-manure than gold nuggets out there. Some of these SCSD progs are worse
    than useless; most are mediocre at best; a relative few are gold-star quality.

    If you have no prior experience in dealing with real-world violence, your ability to judge the quality of the training
    you are receiving is going to be somewhat limited.

    A good course should spend a great deal of time on the subjects of security proceedures (locks, alarms, habits),
    awareness and avoidance (indicators of criminal behaviors or intent, observation and avoidance of same),
    how crime develops and the stages it passes through, tactical considerations, and dealing with the aftermath.

    In the physical, a roughly equal amount of time should be spent on how to not get hit, striking vital points
    (mostly with your hands or knees, kicks should be low), and how to escape from various holds and chokes.

    Weapons disarms are a tricky subject. I've tried teaching disarms to people with no martial-arts background
    before and it usually doesn't work out that well. They get the general idea, or to be more precise they learn
    the rote-technique... but it takes more than that to pull it off in real life in most cases. Most people who
    are not at least serious-amateur MAists seem to lack the attributes (speed, precision, complex-movement-coordination) to manage disarms very well in realistic scenarios.

    Well, anyway, that's my two bits, and I teach this stuff...

    If that's how you all want it, it's not my country so it isn't my place to say, but rather to just wish you good luck with it.

    If you can't even carry pepperspray it sounds like you need all the luck you can get.

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post





    And yet, addressing the bolded sentence first, you are denied the use of any effective tools in defending yourself. It is a reasonably good bet that if the attacker intends to do you serious harm, he will likely have a knife or cudgel, but you can't even carry pepperspray.
    So you can kill him if you have to, but you can't use anything but your bare hands.

    Addressing the self-defense courses.... this is a good thing, everyone should take these.... but understand that their utility is limited. Professional MMA fighters have gotten themselves killed going up against armed thugs, even
    though they train intensively as a full-time profession.

    A serious-amateur martial artist (trains 4 hours a week for 4 years, say) might handle ONE typical unarmed thug
    readily enough, (if the MA he trains in is practical), but add weapons or multiple attackers and his chances drop like a rock down a well.

    A short-course in self-defense... well if you are attacked by one unarmed thug who underestimates you and isn't
    all that tough, and doesn't have serious fighting skills on his own.... you might manage to escape... maybe.

    Another problem is that the quality and practicality of these courses vary a great deal. I've spent some time teaching short-course self-defense (SCSD) to small groups, and evaluating other SCSD programs for
    merit... and there is more horse-manure than gold nuggets out there. Some of these SCSD progs are worse
    than useless; most are mediocre at best; a relative few are gold-star quality.

    If you have no prior experience in dealing with real-world violence, your ability to judge the quality of the training
    you are receiving is going to be somewhat limited.

    A good course should spend a great deal of time on the subjects of security proceedures (locks, alarms, habits),
    awareness and avoidance (indicators of criminal behaviors or intent, observation and avoidance of same),
    how crime develops and the stages it passes through, tactical considerations, and dealing with the aftermath.

    In the physical, a roughly equal amount of time should be spent on how to not get hit, striking vital points
    (mostly with your hands or knees, kicks should be low), and how to escape from various holds and chokes.

    Weapons disarms are a tricky subject. I've tried teaching disarms to people with no martial-arts background
    before and it usually doesn't work out that well. They get the general idea, or to be more precise they learn
    the rote-technique... but it takes more than that to pull it off in real life in most cases. Most people who
    are not at least serious-amateur MAists seem to lack the attributes (speed, precision, complex-movement-coordination) to manage disarms very well in realistic scenarios.

    Well, anyway, that's my two bits, and I teach this stuff...

    If that's how you all want it, it's not my country so it isn't my place to say, but rather to just wish you good luck with it.

    If you can't even carry pepperspray it sounds like you need all the luck you can get.
    Actually I am aware that the course I went on was very good and that I was very fortunate to find it = one of the reasons my daughter did not go on one. It dealt with both the psychological area - ways of disarming the person by saying the unexpected for instance as well as breaking thfough our dislike of hurting.

    The techniques were very good. It certainly was sufficient for me and the woman who taught it believed people learnt more on how to actually protect themselves on this short course than in several years of study on occasions.

    For most people meeting most people a course of that calibre is sufficient. If I had been confronted by the SAS I might have had problems and now my arthritis presents the same.

    Likewise for most people the likelihood of needing a gun is so minuscule as imo not being worth all the accidental deaths both by the police and the public which would no doubt ensue.

    Yes, for personal empowerment I would recommend a good self defence course though I would agree that finding such a course might not be so easy.

    Also mine recommended not just getting yourself free but doing something after to disable the attacker for 5 minutes or so....might there be a conflict as to this being necessary if you did it a bit hard and caused harm, don't know but the important thing is that this course got me through my emotional conflict of worrying about such a thing in such a situation.

    (I never would have done the one poking the eyes though!

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    If you can't even carry pepperspray it sounds like you need all the luck you can get.
    My guess would be that this is due to misuse. When I was a teenager before the stuff was invented I used to carry pepper when I was hitch hiking.
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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Actually I am aware that the course I went on was very good and that I was very fortunate to find it = one of the reasons my daughter did not go on one. It dealt with both the psychological area - ways of disarming the person by saying the unexpected for instance as well as breaking thfough our dislike of hurting.

    The techniques were very good. It certainly was sufficient for me and the woman who taught it believed people learnt more on how to actually protect themselves on this short course than in several years of study on occasions.

    For most people meeting most people a course of that calibre is sufficient. If I had been confronted by the SAS I might have had problems and now my arthritis presents the same.



    Yes, for personal empowerment I would recommend a good self defence course though I would agree that finding such a course might not be so easy.

    Also mine recommended not just getting yourself free but doing something after to disable the attacker for 5 minutes or so....might there be a conflict as to this being necessary if you did it a bit hard and caused harm, don't know but the important thing is that this course got me through my emotional conflict of worrying about such a thing in such a situation.

    (I never would have done the one poking the eyes though!
    As best I can tell from a secondhand account, it sounds like the course was ok. One thing I tell my SCSD students is that they need ongoing practice if they expect to be able to use what I teach them in a sudden, emotionally traumatic attack. Something you did once twenty years ago may not stick with you well enough in such a situation, really.

    I've noted that a lot of people are very squeamish about "poking someone in the eye". I go further than that; I teach how to remove the eyeball entirely. Invariably someone shudders and says "I could never do that". My reply is that if the chap intends to rape you with a broken bottle then strangle you with your own stockings and leave your naked and bleeding corpse on the street, you might think otherwise.

    Close-quarters unarmed combat, in a life-or-death situation, isn't pretty and it isn't at all civilized. I've done it and it is just as ugly as any gunshot wound.

    Likewise for most people the likelihood of needing a gun is so minuscule as imo not being worth all the accidental deaths both by the police and the public which would no doubt ensue.
    I have my doubts about that. In the USA, accidental gunshot deaths are relatively small and have been in decline for half a century. Self-defense uses, even by the most conservative of estimates, outnumber accidental deaths by at least 50 to 1. But, as I say... it is your country, do what you will. Not my call.

    Good Lord, though, you'd think they'd at least let you have pepperspray, of all things.

    My guess would be that this is due to misuse. When I was a teenager before the stuff was invented I used to carry pepper when I was hitch hiking.
    In America, we don't believe in banning a product because some small minority might misuse it. Automobiles are an excellent example: some people drive drunk. We don't ban cars, we just prosecute drunk drivers.
    Last edited by Goshin; 06-06-10 at 02:31 PM.

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    What's the racial and cultural makeup of those countries?

    The point is, that before you start slamming the United States, you have to be honest with yourself and admit that there are other parts of the world that are far worse.

    Poverty is no excuse for acting like an asshole. I didn't have **** when I was growing up and I didn't do all that stupid ****.
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    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    What's the racial and cultural makeup of those countries?

    The point is, that before you start slamming the United States, you have to be honest with yourself and admit that there are other parts of the world that are far worse.
    Dunno who you're responding to, we were talking about that pages ago.

    Yes it is self evident that there are far worse places than the US. South Africa 37.4...

    Poverty is no excuse for acting like an asshole. I didn't have **** when I was growing up and I didn't do all that stupid ****.
    I don't think anybody said poverty was an excuse. However, murder rates do seem to be far worse in countries that are desperately impoverished, culturally primitive, and/or ill-governed.
    Last edited by Goshin; 06-06-10 at 02:44 PM.

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    -- I know under UK Law you can use sufficient force necessary for self defence, up to killing the person if that is needed.

    I would always advise girls to go on self defence courses. I think it is really important to be a ble to protect yourself. Possibly even more so for boys. That being said, my daughter refused to go.
    If you remember the case of Omari Roberts in Nottingham who came home and found two robbers in his house one of whom was armed with a kitchen knife - Roberts managed to defend himself and in the process ended up stabbing one of the attackers with a kitchen knife. The second guy came back to cause more aggor and in the 2nd fight Roberts stabbed him too and ended up in an 12 month court case to clear his name.

    He was only cleared when the surviving burglar finally confessed he'd lied and claimed that Roberts had attacked them without provocation.

    A dose of pepper spray (if we're not allowed guns to protect our own homes) might have meant the robbers were dealt with without deaths. Even so - you're allowed to defend yourself in your own home (but be prepared to spend months clearing your name if the robber lies to the police) but you cannot use something like pepper spray to defend yourself with!

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    That is truly appalling.
    Absolutely!

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    -- Addressing the self-defense courses.... this is a good thing, everyone should take these.... but understand that their utility is limited. Professional MMA fighters have gotten themselves killed going up against armed thugs, even
    though they train intensively as a full-time profession.

    -- snip--
    If you can't even carry pepperspray it sounds like you need all the luck you can get.
    Now you get the picture in the UK..

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