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Thread: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    I dunno where you get your information sport.

    Here's some homicide rates for you by continent.

    North America - 6.5
    Europe - 5.4

    By Country and year. 2001 - most recent


    United States - 5.6 / 5.7 / 5.7 / 5.7 / 5.5 / 5.6 / 5.7 / 5.6 / 5.4 / 5.4

    England and wales - 1.61 / 1.52 / 1.62 / 1.62 / 1.37 / 1.37

    And alot of violent crime you're reffering to comes from drunken louts on a saturday night. Who do tend to be pricks.

    As an Englishmen, I'd rather die then see everyone have guns. I like to system, and I like the fact when I lived there I never had to see one except if you saw an armed cop unit.

    Anyone trying to use this incident as a case for gun legalization is just sick in my opinion.
    England and Wales have far fewer minorities than the United States, too. Just pointing out a fact.

    My point, you ask? You're comparing the whitest country in the world to the most diverse country in the world. Not a very honest comparison, IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Obviously, gun control doesn't do much to stop this sorta thing.

    On another note, does anyone remember when the Brits wanted to outlaw butcher knives a few years ago?
    Did an armed populace stop this?

    11 dead in Alabama shooting spree - Americas, World - The Independent

    or this

    April 2007: At least 22 people are killed as a gunman goes on the rampage at the campus of Virginia Tech

    Or this

    September 1999 – A 47-year-old loner killed seven people in a Fort Worth, Texas, Baptist church. Then he killed himself

    Or this

    December 5, 2007 – A gunman opened fire from a balcony in a shopping mall in Omaha, Nebraska, killing eight people and wounding five, before taking his own life, police said.

    or this

    Feb. 14, 2008: A 27-year-old man goes on a rampage at Northern Illinois University in DeKalb, shooting 21 people, killing five and later himself. University police report that the suspect, a former student, had stopped taking medication and had been acting “somewhat erratic.”

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    Did an armed populace stop this?

    11 dead in Alabama shooting spree - Americas, World - The Independent

    or this

    April 2007: At least 22 people are killed as a gunman goes on the rampage at the campus of Virginia Tech

    Or this

    September 1999 – A 47-year-old loner killed seven people in a Fort Worth, Texas, Baptist church. Then he killed himself

    Or this

    December 5, 2007 – A gunman opened fire from a balcony in a shopping mall in Omaha, Nebraska, killing eight people and wounding five, before taking his own life, police said.

    or this

    Feb. 14, 2008: A 27-year-old man goes on a rampage at Northern Illinois University in DeKalb, shooting 21 people, killing five and later himself. University police report that the suspect, a former student, had stopped taking medication and had been acting “somewhat erratic.”
    Did an unarmed populace stop the West Cumbria shooting? Did an unarmed populace in Japan stop a knife attack that cost 7 people their lives?

    I would like to point out a very important fact about all the incidents that you posted: they all happened in gun free zone, where it is illegal for people to carry guns.

    How many shooting sprees occur at someplace like a biker bar, where most the patrons are surely to be armed and very unafraid to shoot back? Don't see that sorta thing too often. Do you?

    It's an obvious fact, that the nut jobs whom go on shooting sprees target people that they know are unarmed.

    So, to answer your question, no, an armed populace didn't prevent these attacks. However, these attacks weren't perpetrated upon an armed populace.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    So, to answer your question, no, an armed populace didn't prevent these attacks. However, these attacks weren't perpetrated upon an armed populace.
    Well according to you, anyone being able to legally carry guns could stop attacks like these?

    This incident was an isolated one. One which no one could have predicted. **** what if everyone was armed... but just happened to forget to bring their guns out with them. Trying to turn this into a political issue is wrong. The facts are this. We have lower gun crime, less murder and less crime overall.

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    Well according to you, anyone being able to legally carry guns could stop attacks like these?
    Allow me to, again, point a glaring fact about shooting sprees: they happen in places where the shooter expects everyone to be unarmed. I doubt that that is a coincidence.

    This incident was an isolated one. One which no one could have predicted. **** what if everyone was armed... but just happened to forget to bring their guns out with them. Trying to turn this into a political issue is wrong. The facts are this. We have lower gun crime, less murder and less crime overall.
    You have a different demographic, too. Maybe we should ship a few hundred thousand illegal aliens to your neighborhood and see what happens to your crime rate?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Jetboogie...

    It has been pointed out repeatedly, including by me, that ALMOST ALL mass-murders in the USA occur in places where citizens are forbidden to carry personal firearms.

    If you didn't know better, why, you'd think the crazies TARGET people in places where they won't be armed...

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    England and Wales have far fewer minorities than the United States, too. Just pointing out a fact.

    My point, you ask? You're comparing the whitest country in the world to the most diverse country in the world. Not a very honest comparison, IMO.
    Seriously.. the race card............
    PeteEU

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Seriously.. the race card............
    Whats the murder rate in Africa? How about the murder rate in Mexico? Rio de Janeiro has the highest murder rate in the world. The intent of the post I responded to was to imply: Europeans good. Americans bad. I was only pointing out the facts to dispute that implication. If that stings a little too much for you, then I apologize. However, remember your complaint the next time you use, "white", to describe persons's actions you disagree with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    I wasn't sure if Adpst knew what he was talking about, regarding a racial comparison of murder rates, so I decided to do some research.

    FBI report on murders in the USA:


    Offenders
    The data for 2004 concerning the murders for which the offenders were known showed that 91.7 percent of the offenders were adults and 8.3 percent were juveniles. A breakdown of the data by gender showed that 90.1 percent of the offenders were male and 9.9 percent were female. In homicides where the race of the offender was known, 50.0 percent were black, 47.6 percent were white, and 2.4 percent were other races. (Based on Table 2.5.) Data from single victim/single offender incidents showed that 92.2 percent of black victims were murdered by black offenders, and 84.8 percent of white victims were murdered by white offenders. (Based on Table 2.7.)
    Murder - Crime in the United States 2004


    Racial breakdown of America:

    Race and Hispanic or Latino origin Percentage Number
    White alone....... 75.0%....... 228.2 million
    Hispanic or Latino ethnicity, of any race ......15.4%....... 46.9 million
    Black or African American alone ........12.4% .........37.6 million
    Some other race alone ........4.9%....... 15.0 million
    Asian alone ............4.4% ........13.4 million
    Two or more races ..........2.3% ..........7.0 million
    American Indian or Alaska Native alone........ 0.8% ......2.4 million
    Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander alone......... 0.14%..... 0.43 million
    Demographics of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    So in effect, 50% of murders are committed, according to FBI stats, by an ethnic group that is 12% of the general population. I should note at this point that I really hate pointing this out because it may sound racist (and I'm not)...but facts are facts. However, there could certainly be other factors not directly related to race that affect these numbers, like poverty, lack of education, involvement in gangs and drug trafficking, etc.


    Racial breakdown of England:

    Ethnic group 2001 population 2001 percentage 2007 population 2007 percentage
    White ............. 44,679,361 .............90.92%...................45,082,900.. .............. 88.2%
    Asian or Asian British 2,248,289............4.58%.................... 2,914,900 ..............5.7%
    Black or Black British 1,132,508 ............2.30% .................1,447,900 .................2.8%
    Mixed ...................643,373 .................1.31% ..................870,000................... 1.7%
    Chinese, including British Chinese 220,681 0.45% 400,300 0.8%
    Other 214,619 0.44% 376,100 0.7%
    Demography of England - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    The most recent murder rate for England I can find is 1.37 (per 100k).
    For Europe as a whole, the murder rate is 5.4, for western/central Europe 1.5
    The most recent murder rate for USA I can find is 5.4, which is the same as Europe-as-a-whole.

    47% of those murders in America are committed by caucasians.... so the "white murder rate" in the US is roughly 2.6, which is lower than Europe-as-a-whole, about 1.7x that of Wester/Central Europe, not quite double England. It is worth noting that the murder rate for caucasian Americans is less than 1/14th of the world's top rate, which is southern Africa, as noted below.

    So America's "white murder rate" is still much higher than England's and Western Europe's, but lower than Europe as a whole. The picture that is emerging looks more like poverty is the prime factor than race, even though the raw numbers point to a vastly higher murder rates among nonwhites...


    Now, here's a list of homicide rates for various international regions, from a different source...

    Intentional homicide rates per 100,000 population by region and subregion, 2004[6] Rate
    Southern Africa 37.3
    Central America 29.3
    South America 25.9
    West and Central Africa 21.6
    East Africa 20.8
    Africa 20
    Caribbean 18.1
    Americas 16.2
    East Europe 8.1
    North Africa 7.6
    World 7.6
    North America 6.5
    Central Asia and Transcaucasian countries 6.6
    Europe 5.4
    Near and Middle East/South-west Asia 4.4
    Oceania 4
    South Asia 3.4
    List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    If you'll notice, the top rate is 37.3 in southern Africa.

    North America is 6.5 and Europe is 5.4.... comparatively speaking not a lot of difference.

    The single most common theme seems to be: those places with the most abject poverty and primitive living conditions, are the same places where murder rates are highest.
    A secondary factor could be conjectured from American stats, namely that ethnic groups with the worst rates of poverty, drug use and trafficking and gang involvement are where the worst murder rates are found also.
    "Gun control" does not really appear to be a substantial factor, not when comparing the vast differnces that exist in various regions.

    Make of it what you will, I suppose.

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Goshin's sources are essentially correct, there has been for a long while a right (this time written as in our original "Bill of Rights") but the 1953 Prevention of Crime Act is generally cited as making the carrying of any object for the purpose of self-defence a criminal offence.

    This means things like pepper spray which a woman could carry in her handbag to ward off a rapist is illegal and she could be prosecuted - even if she somehow exercised her right to self defence. What we have is one right to self defence but on the other hand severe restrictions on how we might protect ourselves - i.e. we aren't allowed to carry anything that could be used for self defence...
    I can remember hearing about someone being arrested for carrying pepper spray which I agree is ridiculous - unless of course they use it for some other reason.

    I lived at Kings X for a while. I went on a short woman's self defence course called 'Stand Your Ground. It was only 10 weeks long but helped you to get over ideas you might have of being scared to respond and in the ten weeks (1 day a week) taught you all the vulnerable parts of the body and that you should always give a follow up. I have never had to use this but I was no longer scared after the course and I still remember some of the things - like how to get a knife off someone, 30 years later.




    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    I recognise I'm in a minority - however as I pointed out above the law puts us in a quandary - you are allowed to protect yourself in an attack but you aren't allowed the means to do so. I strongly believe in an educated populace - this might include what the Swiss do and require everyone to have yearly re-training with their weapons. Equally and without meaning to insult the US posters, Canada is a very good example where there is almost as high gun ownership as in the US but has far less incidents. I'm not entirely sure why - I haven't looked at it in great depth.

    The UK had pretty high gun ownership until the 1953 act that began to erode gun ownership - I can find no "Dunblane" or "Hungerford" or now "Whitehaven" type incidents in the UK before 1953 - I don't know if the people who went out and shot so many would have done if there had been greater gun ownership among the populace. I don't know if the evil men who perpetrated the horrors would have been put off knowing that UK citizens they encountered could protect themselves.

    I DO know that these three incidents happened after the 1953 act. I'm not theorising - just commenting.
    Yes, well I think on this one I was influenced by my parents. They did not want the police to have guns and obviously if civilians generally own them then the police will too. I just like not having guns.

    I live in a small village and can go out and leave my door open so if there was to be any gun crime here it surely would be one of these people who have temporarily lost their marbles.

    Apart from not wanting everyone to own them and hence not have the police carrying them, personally I don't have a serious interest so don't keep up with laws......but as for changes since '53 and why we had no mad shootings then, my guess would be that it was a different world, most people did not even have a tv so they needed something to do and that something was more often than not making friends with those around - something good to fall back on in hard times.

    Portillo was talking the other night about the quick and not so good legislation put through after Dunblane but he did also say that the reality is that these sort of things do happen more often where people have more access to guns, Switzerland and Canada possibly being exceptions.

    It seems to be access to guns plus society.

    My brother shot me in the foot with an air rifle when I was a child - possibly another reason I don't like them.
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