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Thread: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

  1. #51
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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I was about to walk away from the computer, but this one pulled me back in.


    I bolded the sentence I wish to address. Now, I'm not an expert on the Brit version of common law, but I do seem to recall that at one time, the right of British subjects to own arms for their own defense was enshrined in common law; but that the erosion of that right began in the late 19th century. I think someone once mentioned that it was found in Blackstone's writings? Little help here, someone?

    The first thing I could find with a quick search was this:



    Right to keep and bear arms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    A bit more looking turned this up:



    THE HISTORICAL ENGLISH RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS, by Colin Greenwood

    ... any thoughts?
    Hmmm. That's interesting. I think you may have made me an inadvertant liar. I'll have a look at your sources. What this would mean is that this right was given up or the common law definition of such was modified such that we arrived at a position where society ceased to be exercised by the limitations on gun ownership. I was pretty sure that the ownership was once wider and less restricted, but not that it was ever enshrined in common law. I would maintain that the cultural significance of any right to bear arms has been utterly distinct from that in the US for the previously stated 200 years or so.

    Great discussion, though. Lots to read and think about.

    Cheers G!

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  2. #52
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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    This has been addressed before.

    1. "Concealed". If weapons are kept properly concealed and on one's person, it will be difficult for kids to steal arms from teachers or even know who is and who is not armed.
    2. "Education". The solution for everything is education, right? Or so some say... gun safety programs for kids, like the NRA's "Eddie Eagle" program, have been proven to dramatically reduce child/gun accidents.
    Even educated kids still do stupid things. Concealed is probably the best option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    3. "Special precautions". Massad Ayoob uses a special safety mechanism on some of his guns: a magnetic ring worn on the hand that released a special safety lock on the gun. Someone without the ring cannot fire the gun. Something similar could be applied to guns carried by teachers, coaches, principals, etc.
    Seeing as many schools can't even afford books I highly doubt they can spend money to supply teachers with weapons, let alone weapons with specialized and most likely expensive locking mechanisms.
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  3. #53
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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    Even educated kids still do stupid things. Concealed is probably the best option.
    Yup... but we don't keep them locked up until they're 25 just because we KNOW they're going to do some stupid things.

    I would consider concealed to be the best option. Other possible options could include a gun safe in the principle's office, with the principle and those staff members who have the appropriate training knowing the combo.



    Seeing as many schools can't even afford books I highly doubt they can spend money to supply teachers with weapons, let alone weapons with specialized and most likely expensive locking mechanisms.
    But it's FER THE CHIRREN!! Aren't we supposed to do EVERYTHING fer the chirren? Without counting the cost?? That's what politicians say when they're pushing things like SCHIP and gun control, anyway...

    ****, we throw money at schools like it was water, and half of it gets spent on BS bureaucracy, paperwork, and fancy stuff that has nothing to do with edumacation. I'd be willing to chip in to buy the principle and a couple of coaches a couple of good guns with magnetic ringlocks, even though I really consider the m-ring to be an unnesessary precaution.

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    -- Most of those deaths would have never happened if those people were allowed to arm themselves.

    This terrible tragedy is an example why individuals should be armed --
    I am in favour of gun ownership for law abiding citizens here in the UK however the sheer randomness of Derrick Bird's attacks once he killed his own twin brother and family solicitor showed that gun ownership would not have protected anyone. Some of his victims were killed as he simply drove past them and they had zero chance of knowing what was about top happen. It wasn't like Columbine where the killers had people trapped in some rooms to be shot at and where an armed teacher or member of staff could have reacted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    -- Indeed, I believe I am correct that it was a similar mass-killing that lead England to essentially ban handguns entirely. Nor is it at all beyond imagining that the anti-gun political crowd in Britain will use this tragedy in an effort to further restrict law-abiding gun owners and further impair the British citizen's right of self-defense.
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    -- Gun ownership appears in neither the Spanish constitution nor any of the canon of laws and precedent that makes up the informal British constitution. Added to this, in Britain at least, the idea that gun ownership for personal safety purposes is a quite alien concept, the (unarmed) police are there to protect the citizen and someone who might claim the need to own a gun for personal protection has always been seen as an oddity, a bit weird in fact. And this has always been the case for at least 200 years. I realise that this culture is utterly different from the attitude to gun ownership in the US.
    There isn't a constitutional right as enshrined in the US to bear arms, however what you also have to acknowledge is that banning guns hasn't stopped or prevented illegal gun ownership and drugs related gun deaths in the UK. All we have now is a situation where it's harder for a law abiding citizen to protect themselves than for a criminal to get hold of firearms. We may have had only 3-4 mass shootings such as yesterday and Dunblane before this but gun related incidents via drugs related crime are pretty frequent.

    On the subject of police, I admire that they are largely unarmed - however they are also usually heavily involved in paperwork and other duties. They do respond quickly to emergencies like this but they are not as visible or as much of a deterrent as they once were. This is probably more to do with procedure and red tape though than anything else. Hopefully the new Govt will cut away a lot of the red tape many of us in public services have to deal with in our daily jobs.

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    -- Understand we do not want guns. No one is asking for guns. If there were anyway of having even less guns that is what they would be asking for, but again, in a situation like this, I have not noticed that having guns helps the US one bit and the US has a lot more incidents like this than we do.
    There are some 300,000 firearms licences in the UK. Some of us do believe in gun ownership.

    I'd also look beyond the US and at Canada and Switzerland which have either as high or even higher a gun ownership percentage. I mean no insult to our US posters but I would like us to be more like Canada or Switzerland if we ever reversed our policies. One thing I do strongly agree with in the US is "concealed carry" - the crime figures in states that allow this are worth studying.

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    There are some 300,000 firearms licences in the UK. Some of us do believe in gun ownership.

    I'd also look beyond the US and at Canada and Switzerland which have either as high or even higher a gun ownership percentage. I mean no insult to our US posters but I would like us to be more like Canada or Switzerland if we ever reversed our policies. One thing I do strongly agree with in the US is "concealed carry" - the crime figures in states that allow this are worth studying.
    Do you believe in everyone having a gun becuase that was what this was about. We all need to be armed or there will be the same as yesterday again? Do you want the police armed every day. That is what this was about. If so, enjoy but it remains that their is an overwhelming consesnus in the UK against us all having guns and against the police being armed so you are in the minority. Of course you are allowed your opiniion. I never said you were not. You are simply in the minority and I do not share your view.
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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Do you believe in everyone having a gun becuase that was what this was about. We all need to be armed or there will be the same as yesterday again? Do you want the police armed every day. That is what this was about. If so, enjoy but it remains that their is an overwhelming consesnus in the UK against us all having guns and against the police being armed so you are in the minority. Of course you are allowed your opiniion. I never said you were not. You are simply in the minority and I do not share your view.
    I thought Western Democracy was all about protecting the rights of minorities??

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I thought Western Democracy was all about protecting the rights of minorities??
    Absolutely those with a minority view have the right to have that view and to express it.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Absolutely those with a minority view have the right to have that view and to express it.

    But not to exercise their rights actively if the majority disagree, eh?

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Slightly off topic but my friend purchased his first firearm today. He was positively giddy with excitement!

    Here's what he got...



    Positively exquisite - hopefully he never has to use it against anyone. Water melons and beer cans will suffice.

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